[permaculture] Permaculture Going Wild

Tripp Tibbetts slowfoodguy at yahoo.com
Thu Dec 17 15:39:08 EST 2009

I wasn't confused by the formatting.  I was confused by your aggressive tone, and some of the less considered ideas you were putting forth.  Like that I was advocating using pesticides when I was speaking allegorically about trying to stamp out "invasive species" of varying sorts in the permaculture ideal, and how, as with kudzu, that is not only impossible, but counter-productive.  I understand that permaculture is "free and open to anyone"...so long as you take the "right" intro course taught by the "right" people approved by the "right" approving agency.  Free and open.  Yes.  Got it.
The correlations in this evolving discussion to the big picture of permaculture itself are fascinating, and not about to go away through bullying, any more than the Bullock brothers' muskrats (in Gaia's Garden) would have been eradicated through violence.  And even if they had driven out the rats, a new interloper would've descended upon them to soak up the liberated excess.  So, by correlation, bullying me into silence would only quiet that particular source of questioning.  It will come right back in another form.  (Not that I particularly like comparing myself to a muskrat!)  The Bullocks accepted the loss of their delicious cattail shoots as inevitable under the conditions, and were rewarded for their patience and wisdom when the apex predators moved in to dine on their problem.
So what Holger and I are trying to say (Holger, correct me if I'm wrong) is that since it's a losing battle to try to control permaculture's trajectory anyway, why not be malleable about the situation, and think ecologically.  If the muskrats move in, their excess will draw in the eagles.  And unless one views themself as Nature's appointed apex predator, my thought would be that fighting the muskrats is both resource draining and counter-productive, inevitably stalling succession.
And Holger's right, the world is really tired of American hubris/policing/superiority/meddling....
Am I making sense here?  I've noticed if there's no positive feedback on this forum that quite often the negative automatically assumes it's been called upon to straighten things out.  If "the bigs" on this forum are following this thread, my guess is that they've turned ruminant on the subject.
I'm with you, Lawrence, on the pattern of agents provacateurs in western protest.  I've just lost my appetite for chatting about the details for some reason.
Tripp out.

The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb

--- On Thu, 12/17/09, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm at bellsouth.net> wrote:

From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture Going Wild
To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thursday, December 17, 2009, 7:26 PM

Tripp Tibbetts wrote:

> Your post was pretty confusing.  Or rather, confused.

Was a text formatting problem, a matter of separating quoted text from 
replies. When I reply, sometimes the quoted text lacks line any breaks
so I copy and paste into another email message and its gets properly 
formatted but without the quote marks in the right place; I get tired of
reformatting and typing columns of >'s.

My reply was clear though:

Permaculture is already free and open to anyone. Get busy, practice 
permaculture, nobody's in your way. Form your own groups, guilds, 
communities, practice and teach permaculture as fits your needs for the 
bioregion you're in. Its just that you'll do it beter following 
Mollison's ideas and methods as a starting point, go from there. That's 
why the STANDARDS needs to be upheld and preserved so others will have 
the best STARTING POINT that is available. Then improve on it. This just 
seems obvious.

> What issues were you involved in activism for?
> Anti-war? Tax reform? Free Tibet? Fund raising for low income people?
> Municipal landscapes, parks and community gardens, urban neighborhood 
> farms? Providing healthcare for the needy?

I am still curious what causes you were involved with as an activist.

During the early 60's when the civil rights movement was in full swing,
I had friends who were actively involved in demonstrations that went on 
in my home town and on marches elsewhere in the South. One friend
who played football when he was in school at UNC participated in a sit 
in at a restaurant outside town. He was titting with others near the 
doorway and the owner, a woman, came out, straddled his head, pulled up 
her dress and took a pee on his head. Didn't phase him. I was not 
involved in any activist demonstrations, then or since. In the case of 
union organizing, especially in industrialized cities, it is reputedly 
almost mandatory and gets results whereas in the case of enviro activism 
that gets out of control and causes property damage, I think those folks 
should have stayed at home and blogged or twitted (2nd nature to some)
and that the worst offenders at those events were probably agents 
provocateurs or thugs put there for that purpose of making the peaceful 
activists look bad.

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