[permaculture] OT Re: the gardener's shadow falls both ways

Lee Flier leeflier at comcast.net
Sun Dec 13 20:05:10 EST 2009

fdnokes at hotmail.com wrote:
> The point is not where the message comes from, but what the message is...

I disagree.  I think if the source of the message is someone that the 
reader doesn't feel is trustworthy or credible, the message suffers, 
even if it's a good message.  It won't reach who it's intended to reach.

> (If you required that I think of myself as a body, then I do not qualify for 
> this list!
I don't "require" anything.  I don't really think of myself as a body, 
either, and I'd wager our views are probably not too far apart in many 
respects, though we may differ in the way we express or manifest those 

However, nothing I would ever teach others with regard to permaculture 
would require that they believe, or  have to put up with listening to, 
any of that.  And fortunately, nothing about permaculture requires that, 
nor are they mutually exclusive.  And it's extremely rare that I feel 
constrained by not discussing my spiritual beliefs in a permaculture 
> I understand your feelings about newly joined people...
> However, I have concerns about the loss of enrichment, meaning and aliveness 
> for those currently present.
> The loss of life to the list.
> Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Again, I disagree and I think this is my entire point in this 
discussion.  I think that simply by observing what happens in the world 
through the particular lens of permaculture principles, one does 
naturally find patterns and have experiences that are filled with 
meaning and aliveness and richness, regardless of what deities one does 
or doesn't believe in.  The world is filled with enough miracles to go 
around, that can be shared by everyone.  By each of us focusing on our 
own brand of miracles, we miss out on that, as well as leave a lot of 
people out.

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