[permaculture] OT Re: the gardener's shadow falls both ways

fdnokes at hotmail.com fdnokes at hotmail.com
Sun Dec 13 18:51:19 EST 2009


Are we mature intelligent adults on this list, or have I missed something?

Clearly we are on an OT type of thread here...
And, we are in a rather sensitive discussion, at least some of us have been 
trying to steer the discussion in the direction of, what is appropriate for 
OT type of discussion on this list.
You speak of not trying to alienate people on your PDC's.
Well, take a deep breath, and try to relate to the people that are on this 
list for starters.
I can think of three whose posts you seem to be blocking the import of.

You have missed my 'drift' completely.
This title has a description of the aspect of 'being' which we are, in 
general, at a loss to know.
Time is there, to be 'used'.
The more fools we.
The word 'magical' should not offend you, as it relates only to the 
'quality' of being.
If you are working with land and plants and are allergic to the word 
'magical', then I think it's time for you to take a break from playing 
censor, and struggle a bit more on inner levels. Seriously. To work with 
land and with plants is to work with the mystery of life at some of its 
deepest levels.  Notice I'm not calling it any names or framing it in any 
context.  That notion of spirituality is somewhat dated in my books.  We all 
have spiritual lives.  Living in the ego... That is another thing.
As to science, those that travel deeply into fields of science are witness 
to the deepening of the mystery, not the stripping of life from it.

So, before you imply censorship, think again.  Some of your ideas are 
getting rather 'crusty' and to give yourself license to censor, and limit, 
will only make them more so. Instead, I challenge you to live and let 
live... Allow for some diversity, please, or expect a dropping off from 
engagement on this list.
I'm a bit baffled by the sense of some people that they are 'keepers of this 
Thought we were doing awfully well with each person contributing from their 
own point of view and balancing out each other's idea with some sense of 
I was not aware that anyone was playing 'teacher' on this list, but thought 
that everyone was here for their own purposes. If that purpose is merely to 
gather students, I would not say that would be a list that I would feel as 
comfortable in as one where everyone felt that had something to gain from 
some of the posts, and knew which ones they could ignore.

It would be far more productive, in my mind, if you were to respond to my 
suggestion that this list is not 'in locus PDC' and that it might serve 
other more individual experience oriented purposes as well.  Or, whether, 
there are list nannies that are worrying about the impact of any particular 
post on the list subscribers.

That would be more to the point, and more in the interests of inclusiveness.
 If not, I would be happy to turn my intelligence to other matters...


From: "Lee Flier" <leeflier at comcast.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 3:09 PM
To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] the gardener's shadow falls both ways

> fdnokes at hotmail.com wrote:
>> May I recommend a title, then?
>> The Magical Approach
>> Seth speaks about the art of Creative Living
> With all due respect, and I really hate to keep harping on this but...
> this is exactly IMO the kind of title we should steer clear of.  Not
> that I'm telling you personally not to read it, if you enjoyed it, but
> keep in mind there are people on this list who are using the list to
> learn about permaculture, and here you are recommending a book that
> basically requires people to believe in this channeled being named
> Seth.  If people who read this list believe that this book is somehow
> representative of permaculture and its practitioners, that's going to be
> a problem for anybody who would, for whatever reason (either they are
> atheist, or they subscribe to a religion whose tenets do not include
> channeled beings, or they just plain don't believe in such things), be
> turned off to the whole idea of permaculture if they feel they have to
> accept these things.
> I feel there are plenty of other ways to communicate the ideas you
> mention, the "reminder to slow down and notice," which don't require any
> suspension of disbelief and/or contradiction with anyone else's beliefs.
>> I was composing this note, and paused for other things...
>> Didn't even realize I had left it 'hanging'.
>> Meanwhile, another post came in from Pat talking about 'nudgings'.
>> A wonderful process that reminds me of that state of 'not doing' that
>> Fukuoka communicates so beautifully.
> Just so you know... there seems to be some idea that Mollison himself
> and anybody who subscribes to "Mollinsonian permaculture" is some kind
> of pure hard nosed utilitarian.  I might offer a few direct quotes
> (possibly slightly paraphrased from memory) from Mollison which he
> taught in his classes and which I feel is the greatest cultural hurdle
> we have to overcome (and that means just about everybody - "earth
> centered spiritualists" and "hardcore utilitarians" alike.
> - "Where there is hard work, there is usually pollution."
> - "What we have is a world of things that either have beauty without
> being functional, or have function without  beauty.   Nature doesn't
> work that way - natural systems are both functional and beautiful."
> - "One should be able to spend most of one's time in the garden sitting
> around, and just BEING in the garden.  Or go away for a month's holiday
> and come back to find the garden thriving."
> I'm sure I'm leaving out a few key points, but you get the idea.  By no
> means is a pragmatic approach to these things inherently geared toward
> "busywork" and being "product oriented."  And that, IMO, is where we
> went wrong in our thinking.  I feel that once you incorporate
> permacultural thinking to the point where it becomes second nature, you
> can certainly be taken over or "nudged" by your instincts, divine
> guidance, your right brain, however it is you choose to think of it.
> But people do tend to think of that "nudging" as different things in
> different ways, and we should leave plenty of room for that.
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