[permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 53, Issue 47

Maureen Sutton suttonmaureen at hotmail.com
Mon Jun 18 07:42:30 EDT 2007


I've been off-list for several months, just storing these e's from Pc.  How 
sad to come back in and find off-topic rants.  Please, there is no time for 
such stuff.  It's the permaculture info I need, not more of what I can 
unfortunately find in many other places.
Honey bees, sustainability, peak oil, pest management, land reclamation, 
etc. please give us all the help you can, thanks!

http://sifting-the-sandhills.blogspot.com/

Is your produce better-travelled than you are?

Do the thing that you believe in.  Do the best you can in the place where 
you are, and be kind.

- Maureen D Sutton
Farm Up the Street with The Soiled Sisters:  Our Reputation Is Dirt



>From: permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org
>Reply-To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 53, Issue 47
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 23:08:34 -0400
>
>Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
>	permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>	http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>	permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>	permaculture-owner at lists.ibiblio.org
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. The spirit of Martin Naylor is with us still... (rafter t. sass)
>    2. Re: BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress Votes to Outsource
>       Presidency! (Kenneth Benway)
>    3. Re: BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress Votes to Outsource
>       Presidency! (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>    4. Re: Seedballs (Lunaflora21 at aol.com)
>    5. Re: Design-Bioregional-Energy Policy-The	Sustainability of
>       Bio... (Marimike6 at cs.com)
>    6. Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices, deforestation
>       (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>    7. Re: Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,	deforestation
>       (Robert Waldrop)
>    8. (no subject) (eclecticdr at aol.com)
>    9. Re: Design-Bioregional-Energy Policy-The Sustainability of
>       Bio... (Robyn Francis)
>   10. Re: Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,	deforestation
>       (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>   11. Re: (no subject) (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>   12. Re: Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,	deforestation
>       (Robert Waldrop)
>   13. Re: BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress Votes to Outsource
>       Presidency! (Graham)
>   14. Re: Keith Johnson for President! (Graham)
>   15. Shit (Tommy Tolson)
>   16. Re: Crabgrass, Bermuda grass, etc. (Paul Cereghino)
>   17. Re: Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,	deforestation
>       (Tommy Tolson)
>   18. Re: Crabgrass, Bermuda grass, etc. (Golden Love)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:01:01 -0700
>From: "rafter t. sass" <geophaestus at hotmail.com>
>Subject: [permaculture] The spirit of Martin Naylor is with us
>	still...
>To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <BAY125-F2602377407F9E291CC21D6BF1C0 at phx.gbl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
>
>How about all creepy venting/ranting, particularly violent and rape
>fantasies, are kept off-list?
>
> >Hell, the little punk
> >should have hit the 12 year Water Oak. That would have stopped him dead.
> >Might even have killed him but I doubt it. I'm mad but I didn't want him
> >to die. Maybe I'd take his girlfriend.Too bad I didn't have a brick wall
> >around my perimeter. Put him with inmates out on the highway shoulder.
>
>No question that the event sucked, and gave folks reason to be angry. No
>reason to not be angry as hell at the young person who was driving the car.
>I understand that folks sometimes just need to vent their extreme emotions.
>Public fora are not the place to do it, however. Particularly when our
>revenge fantasies play into the violent culture of incarceration and
>punishment, and goold ol' fashioned Cro-Magnon misogyny as well. Or is 
>there
>some nuance behind "Maybe I'd take his girlfriend," that I'm missing?
>
>So: Be angry. Find willing ears to listen to you vent. Don't vent those
>emotions into a global discussion forum unless you are being very 
>thoughtful
>about what you are saying and how you are saying it.
>
>Thanks.
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Picture this – share your photos and you could win big!
>http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 13:21:31 -0400
>From: "Kenneth Benway" <ken at arcadiandesign.org>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress
>	Votes to Outsource Presidency!
>To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <000801c7b103$f2e59960$660aa8d2 at arcadian.local>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250
>
>LL,
>Well I've got to be honest with you Lawrence; I'm going to need a little
>time to respond to most of these comments.
>My number one priority is to create a Permaculture design for the
>Florida Bioregion as I thought I had made clear when I created that
>topic. Once in a while I like to blow off a little humorous steam. I
>find it sad that you took offense.
>
>I have a host of other projects as well, many of which involves my
>participation on this list. One of the projects I use this list for
>relates directly to the bioregional design project for Florida, as I'm
>sure you can recognize from the names of some of the topics that I've
>initiated.
>
>I will respond to one aspect of your comments now, however.
>
>YES! Please pass the hat! Send contributions to:
>
>Arcadian Design
>4315 10 St North
>St Petersburg, Fl 33703
>Attn: Ken's Therapy Fund
>
>Please make contributions of a minimum of $100 cash, in Euros or,
>preferably gold or silver(fine, not sterling right?). Ken really needs
>your help.
>
>Regards,
>The nut job Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>[mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence F.
>London, Jr.
>Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 6:26 AM
>To: permaculture
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress Votes
>to Outsource Presidency!
>
>Kenneth Benway wrote:
>
> > I just couldn't let this one get by without sharing it with the group.
>I
> > think that we can always us a good laugh, I know I can.
> > Ken
> >
> > Congress Votes to Outsource Presidency
>
>This crosses the line, it has absolutely nothing to do with
>permaculture.
>Do we need to pass the hat and pay for therapy for you Ken?
>
>Read my keystrokes, no more political posts. These ladies say it too:
>http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/images/bush3.jpg
>
>We've been losing a subscriber every few days, unusual for this forum.
>Back to PC. Be Permaculturally Correct.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>-go to the above link to subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list-
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.15/848 - Release Date:
>6/13/2007 12:50 PM
>
>
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.17/850 - Release Date:
>6/15/2007 11:31 AM
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 13:46:45 -0400
>From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl at intrex.net>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress
>	Votes to Outsource Presidency!
>To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <46757385.3080001 at intrex.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
>Kenneth Benway wrote:
> > LL,
> > Well I've got to be honest with you Lawrence; I'm going to need a little
> > time to respond to most of these comments.
> > I find it sad that you took offense.
>
>OT = Off Topic
>
>And this:
>
>  > Hell, the little punk
>  > should have hit the 12 year Water Oak. That would have stopped him 
>dead.
>  > Might even have killed him but I doubt it. I'm mad but I didn't want 
>him
>  > to die. Maybe I'd take his girlfriend. Too bad I didn't have a brick 
>wall
>  > around my perimeter. Put him with inmates out on the highway shoulder.
>
>Can't believe you'd post this drivel. I thiught we were done with stuff 
>when Martin and Tradingpost
>exited the forum. And these are the people ssupporting Ron Paul? Doesn't 
>say much for him as a candidate.
>
> > I have a host of other projects as well, many of which involves my
> > participation on this list. One of the projects I use this list for
> > relates directly to the bioregional design project for Florida, as I'm
> > sure you can recognize from the names of some of the topics that I've
> > initiated.
>
>I'd suggest you stick to these topics.
>
> > The nut job Ken
>
>Take the 12 step rightwingnut kneejerk program and keep yourself subscribed 
>to this forum.
>
>--
>Lawrence F. London, Jr.
>Venaura Farm
>lfl at intrex.net
>http://market-farming.com
>http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
>http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
>http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 13:51:46 EDT
>From: Lunaflora21 at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Seedballs
>To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <d32.f2a7dfa.33a6ceb2 at aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>Hi there. Seedballs, in my experience work better when used on a large
>expanse of area, otherwise they seem to not be worth it, as broadcasting  
>straight
>seed seems to have a higher germination and overall success rate for  
>smaller
>areas (plus, straight seed broadcasting is less input in all  aspects).  
>Size
>of seedball could also determine success rate, and may be  something you 
>want
>to experiment with.  With larger seedballs we had  somewhat successful
>germination rates of a few native species (which made for  increased 
>biodiversity
>within the seedballs' area, while smaller seedballs had  somewhat higher
>germination rates, and made for more evenly dispersed  biodiversity 
>throughout the
>whole area that we seedballed.  We were also  doing seedbombing as guerilla
>restoration of vacant lots in our town, so the  smaller seedballs made for 
>less
>attention drawn to our activities, but you're  probably not concerned with 
>the
>attention aspect.   Also, the  type of clay used may effect the germination
>rates.  I would recommend not  using the gray potter's clay, but instead 
>using red
>powdered clay (more  nutrients and easier to mix), then mixing in dry 
>compost
>and your seeds at the  same time, and then wetting the mixture and balling 
>it
>up. Well, hope this  helps...let us know how your project turns out!! Would
>love to hear  about your success rates! Good luck to you.
>Katie
>
>
>
>************************************** See what's free at 
>http://www.aol.com.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 14:03:11 EDT
>From: Marimike6 at cs.com
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Design-Bioregional-Energy Policy-The
>	Sustainability of Bio...
>To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <c24.1a39b51c.33a6d15f at cs.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>I'd still like to echo the original comment, which was that someone should 
>do
>the math to see how viable next-generation solar would be for providing 
>power
>to the state of Florida.
>
>Here are the 2004 figures for energy consumption in that state.
>
>http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/states/sep_sum/html/sum_btu_tot.html
>
>I see they used 755.2 trillion btus of natural gas-- nearly all, I would
>suspect, in electrical generation-- plus 325.5 trillion btus from nuclear 
>power,
>699.1 trillion btus from coal, 176.1 trillion btus from biomass and a
>negligible amount (2.7 trillion btus) from hydroelectric power. Or, very 
>roughly,
>1,200,000,000,000 btus total for the year.
>
>That's a lot of juice. Just so we can wrap our heads around the concept,
>could someone with a grasp of the new solar technology size a system for us 
>that
>could, say, provide just a trillion btus per year? I'd like to see what 
>we're
>talking about.
>
>Michael
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 14:06:08 -0400
>From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl at intrex.net>
>Subject: [permaculture] Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,
>	deforestation
>To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <46757810.7090402 at intrex.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>
>Interesting piece of news. Now gas prices will stay high, food prices will 
>go up, deforestation will increase
>and gmo pollen & pest control chemical pollution from the growing of gmo 
>crops will increase. How exactly is ethanol
>fuel used? Many vehicles with rubber o-rings, seals and gaskets would 
>probably be at risk from high alcohol-content road
>fuel. How do they deal with that? - LL
>|
>|
>Gasoline refinery expansions scaled back
>
>By H. JOSEF HEBERT, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
>
>WASHINGTON - With Congress and the White House pushing to increases the use 
>of ethanol, the oil industry is scaling back
>its plans to expand refineries ? which could keep gasoline prices high, 
>possibly for years to come.
>ADVERTISEMENT
>
>President Bush has called for a 20 percent decline in gasoline use by 2017 
>and the Senate is debating legislation for
>huge increases in the use of ethanol as a motor fuel. So, oil companies see 
>a growing uncertainty about future gasoline
>demand and less need to increase refinery capacity to make more gasoline.
>
>A shortage of refineries frequently has been blamed by politicians for the 
>sharp price spikes in gasoline.
>
>This spring, refiners, hampered by outages, could not keep up with demand 
>and imports were down because of greater fuel
>demand in Europe and elsewhere. Despite stable ? even sometimes declining ? 
>oil prices, gasoline prices soared to record
>levels and remain well above $3 a gallon.
>
>Consumer advocates maintain the oil industry likes it that way.
>
>"By creating a situation of extremely tight supply, the oil companies gain 
>control over price at the wholesale level,"
>says Mark Cooper of the Consumer Federation of America. He argues the 
>refining industry "has no interest in creating
>spare (refining) capacity."
>
>Only last year, the Energy Department was told that refiners, reaping big 
>profits and anticipating growing demand, were
>looking at boosting their refining capacity by 1.6 million barrels a day, a 
>roughly 10 percent increase.
>
>But oil companies already have scaled those expansion plans back by nearly 
>40 percent. More cancelations are expected if
>Congress passes legislation now before the Sensate calling for 15 billion 
>gallons of ethanol use by 2015 and more than
>double that by 2022, say industry and government officials.
>
>"These (expansion) decisions are being revisited in boardrooms across the 
>refining sector," says Charlie Drevna,
>executive vice president of the National Petrochemical and Refiners 
>Association.|
>|
>And more waste:
>|
>|
>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/contractors_iraq;_ylt=Aoa0t.MMmN7gRqM3LC5TfbVhr7sF
>Problems continue with defense contracts
>
>By ANDREW TAYLOR, Associated Press Writer Sat Jun 16, 3:00 PM ET
>
>WASHINGTON - A pair of U.S. senators investigating reports of waste, fraud 
>and mismanagement in defense contracts in
>Iraq reported from Baghdad Saturday that they see some improvement but the 
>military has a long way to go.
>
>Sens. Claire McCaskill (news, bio, voting record), D-Mo., and Tom Carper, 
>D-Del., were in Iraq meeting with
>Pentagon officials to discuss reports of waste, fraud and mismanagement in 
>defense contracts.
>
>Uncountable billions of dollars have been squandered, McCaskill said, but 
>there has been improvement in centralizing
>contracting oversight and increasing the number of fixed-price contracts 
>containing incentives not to pad costs.
>
>That's a departure from the early days of the war when reconstruction money 
>and other aid to Iraq was shoveled into the
>country with little oversight.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:11:12 -0500
>From: "Robert Waldrop" <bwaldrop at cox.net>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,
>	deforestation
>To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <005401c7b11b$a7259580$6400a8c0 at bobcomputer>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
>	reply-type=original
>
>A lot of folks are trying to make much hay out of
>the supposed refinery shortage.  But the real
>problem is peak oil.  Why should an international
>oil corporation invest big bucks to expand its
>refining capacity when soon there won't be enough
>crude oil?  The refinery shortage is going to
>resolve itself in the near term by being exposed
>as a "crude oil shortage".  World oil production
>peaked in May 2005, and it has been all downhill
>since then.  not a very steep decline, but a
>decline nevertheless.  It remains to be seen if
>May 2005 was "it", or a bump on a plateau, but in
>this case it is best to not bet against Mother
>Nature nor the Laws of Thermodynamics.
>
>Bob Waldrop, OKC
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl at intrex.net>
>To: "permaculture"
><permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 1:06 PM
>Subject: [permaculture] Ethanol fuel, gas prices,
>food prices, deforestation
>
>
>
>Interesting piece of news. Now gas prices will
>stay high, food prices will go up, deforestation
>will increase
>and gmo pollen & pest control chemical pollution
>from the growing of gmo crops will increase. How
>exactly is ethanol
>fuel used? Many vehicles with rubber o-rings,
>seals and gaskets would probably be at risk from
>high alcohol-content road
>fuel. How do they deal with that? - LL
>|
>|
>Gasoline refinery expansions scaled back
>
>Consumer advocates maintain the oil industry likes
>it that way.
>
>"By creating a situation of extremely tight
>supply, the oil companies gain control over price
>at the wholesale level,"
>says Mark Cooper of the Consumer Federation of
>America. He argues the refining industry "has no
>interest in creating
>spare (refining) capacity."
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 17:06:48 -0400
>From: eclecticdr at aol.com
>Subject: [permaculture] (no subject)
>To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <8C97F3A8D7070EB-E20-79F6 at WEBMAIL-RD19.sysops.aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>Please regretfully remove me from the permaculture list.? There are way to 
>many extraneous messages with too few cogent ideas.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Michael
>
>Eclecticdr at aol.com
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free 
>from AOL at AOL.com.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:31:48 +1000
>From: Robyn Francis <erda at nor.com.au>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Design-Bioregional-Energy Policy-The
>	Sustainability of Bio...
>To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <C29BF374.390F%erda at nor.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"
>
>On 18/6/07 4:03 AM, "Marimike6 at cs.com" <Marimike6 at cs.com> wrote:
>
> > I see they used 755.2 trillion btus of natural gas-- nearly all, I would
> > suspect, in electrical generation-- plus 325.5 trillion btus from 
>nuclear
> > power,
> > 699.1 trillion btus from coal, 176.1 trillion btus from biomass and a
> > negligible amount (2.7 trillion btus) from hydroelectric power. Or, very
> > roughly,
> > 1,200,000,000,000 btus total for the year.
> >
> > That's a lot of juice. Just so we can wrap our heads around the concept,
> > could someone with a grasp of the new solar technology size a system for 
>us
> > that
> > could, say, provide just a trillion btus per year? I'd like to see what 
>we're
> > talking about.
>
>IMO Looking at renewables to replace such a massive consumption of energy 
>is
>a doomed techno-fix approach.
>The permaculture approach would be to look first at where energy savings 
>can
>be most effectively achieved. E.g. In the state of Qld 40% pf domestic
>electricity is used for water heating, the state government has now made
>solar water heaters mandatory for all new homes and offers subsidies for
>homeowners to switch from electricity to solar.
>Smart business initiatives are slashing power consumption on that front 
>e.g.
>20% power savings simply from switching off all computers & equipment of
>stand-by and non-essential lighting at night when the office is closed.
>
>Once you start eliminating these excessive and wasteful demands on
>production (and they really start to add up to substantial amounts once
>there's a good number of strategies), then exploring the logistics of
>renewable sources for essential needs become a far more feasible exercise.
>
>Robyn
>
>"Change your life - not the climate"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:59:05 -0400
>From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl at intrex.net>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,
>	deforestation
>To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <4675BCB9.7080102 at intrex.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
>Robert Waldrop wrote:
> > A lot of folks are trying to make much hay out of
> > the supposed refinery shortage.  But the real
> > problem is peak oil.  Why should an international
> > oil corporation invest big bucks to expand its
> > refining capacity when soon there won't be enough
> > crude oil?
>
>Where did you get this information
>Do you regard that source as credible?
>Do you believe that theory as opposed to
>that of "keeping gas prices artificially high
>while they invest in ethanol production (or corn commodity
>or stocks in gmo's, ethanol distribution and sales, etc.)"
>
> > The refinery shortage is going to
> > resolve itself in the near term by being exposed
> > as a "crude oil shortage".  World oil production
> > peaked in May 2005, and it has been all downhill
>
>Is that from a reliable source?
>
> > since then.  not a very steep decline, but a
> > decline nevertheless.  It remains to be seen if
> > May 2005 was "it", or a bump on a plateau, but in
> > this case it is best to not bet against Mother
> > Nature nor the Laws of Thermodynamics.
> >
> > Bob Waldrop, OKC
>
>What we need to be doing is:
>
>1) keep drinking water pure and unpolluted
>2) recycle solid waste:
>- metals
>- toxic metals
>- plastics
>- wood products
>3) recycle clean compostable solid waste products
>- food waste
>- wood products waste
>- biomass: certain clean industrial and manufacturing byproducts, landscape 
>waste & paper products
>- humanure
>4) Use the output of 3) to grow trees, ornamental landscapes, more biomass, 
>wood products and
>     plants that can be turned into paper
>5) Use the output of 3)
>- to grow perennial and tree food crops, grains, hay forage
>- for forest farming
>- to create pastures for free-range, pastured and grass fed livestock
>- use the cleanest to grow food crops
>
>Society needs to adjust to efficient recycling of humanure, preferably 
>through onsite, residential
>biological systems that work through all seasons. I have some ideas on the 
>drawing board for
>a family-sized system that is connected to a residential structure. It uses 
>concrete, concrete block,
>AAC insulating block (Aercon) or rigid foamboard, glass or clear 
>polycarbonate, nontoxic pressure treated lumber,
>recycled composite plastic lumber offering options, with provision for 
>squat or elevated conventional position
>and standing. Simple, durable, indestructible, sanitary and reliable.
>
>LL
>--
>Lawrence F. London, Jr.
>Venaura Farm
>lfl at intrex.net
>http://market-farming.com
>http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
>http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
>http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 11
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:00:13 -0400
>From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl at intrex.net>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] (no subject)
>To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <4675BCFD.3070704 at intrex.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
>eclecticdr at aol.com wrote:
>
> > Please regretfully remove me from the permaculture list.  There are way 
>to many extraneous messages with too few cogent ideas.
>
>Hang in there; things will improve, I promise. - LL
>--
>Lawrence F. London, Jr.
>Venaura Farm
>lfl at intrex.net
>http://market-farming.com
>http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
>http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
>http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 12
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:47:14 -0500
>From: "Robert Waldrop" <bwaldrop at cox.net>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,
>	deforestation
>To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <018c01c7b139$d5805c80$6400a8c0 at bobcomputer>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>	reply-type=original
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl at intrex.net>
> > Where did you get this information
>
>Among other things I do, I moderate
>runningonempty2 at yahoogroups.com which has been
>discussing peak oil and its related energy issues
>since 2001.  We have about 7200 members and 55,000
>messages in our archive.  The idea that the dearth
>in refinery construction is due to peak oil is a
>very common topic of the discussion there and
>elsewhere (e.g. Association for the Study of Peak
>Oil, http://www.peakoil.net/ ).  Corporations are
>in business to make money.  Under US law, they
>have no other purpose than making money for their
>shareholders (I don't agree with that, but I think
>it is an accurate description of the present
>situation).  Thus, it makes no sense for them to
>expand refinery production because future world
>oil production won't support an expanded refinery
>system.
>
> > Do you regard that source as credible?
>
>Yes.
>
> > Do you believe that theory as opposed to
> > that of "keeping gas prices artificially high
> > while they invest in ethanol production (or corn
> > commodity
> > or stocks in gmo's, ethanol distribution and
> > sales, etc.)"
>
>I don't think gasoline prices are artificially
>high.  I think they are artificially low, and I
>think that that concept, besides being a peak oil
>axiom, is also a permaculture idea.  The net
>effect of the combination of oil corporation and
>government action throughout the 20th century has
>been to shift the costs of petroleum production
>and consumption off of those doing the producing
>and onto the general public and the environment.
>If all the externalities of a gallon of oil could
>be allocated to the price of that gallon, it would
>surely be at least $10-$15/gallon.  That would be
>a minimum "fair permaculture price" for a gallon
>of gasoline.
>
>Rising gasoline prices are not a bad thing from
>the viewpoint of the permaculture, it seems to me.
>Rising gasoline prices are not only a good thing,
>they are a necessary thing.  If we want petroleum
>consumption to decline, then the price must
>increase.
>
>At $3.20/gallon, the price of gasoline is only 20
>cents per cup.  Coca-Cola is more expensive in the
>United States than gasoline.
>
> >> The refinery shortage is going to
> >> resolve itself in the near term by being
> >> exposed
> >> as a "crude oil shortage".  World oil
> >> production
> >> peaked in May 2005, and it has been all
> >> downhill
> >
> > Is that from a reliable source?
>
>The May 2005 peak data is from US Department of
>Energy, Energy Information Administration, Monthly
>Energy Report, go to
>http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/mer/inter.html and
>click on the link to world oil production.  It was
>74.151 Million Barrels per Day in May 2005, and
>Feb 2007 production, the most recent available at
>this site, was 73.195 million barrels.
>
>Bob Waldrop, OKC
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 13
>Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 01:40:10 +0100
>From: Graham <grahamburnett at blueyonder.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress
>	Votes to Outsource Presidency!
>To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <4675D46A.7000407 at blueyonder.co.uk>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Allow political discussion on the forum and divisiveness is inevitable.
>Lawrence, I still sagely nod at your disallowing of my post about the UK
>McLibel Trial all those years back. It wasn't irrelevant to the
>permaculture debate but didn't belong on this list. There are plenty of
>other forums for Political (big 'P') discussion, lets keep the
>internatrional permaculture forum focussed on positive solutions and
>ways forward to abundant living in post energy descent futures and what
>we can do thats positive and practical now...
>
>Cheers Graham www.spiralseed.co.uk
>
>Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> > Kenneth Benway wrote:
> >
> >> LL,
> >> Well I've got to be honest with you Lawrence; I'm going to need a 
>little
> >> time to respond to most of these comments.
> >> I find it sad that you took offense.
> >>
> >
> > OT = Off Topic
> >
> >
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 14
>Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 01:31:30 +0100
>From: Graham <grahamburnett at blueyonder.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Keith Johnson for President!
>To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <4675D262.9050003 at blueyonder.co.uk>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Thank you for that concise summary of my own thoughts Keith!!
>
>Keith Johnson wrote:
>
>
>  Politicians,
> > in general, would be more effective if they were mulched...deeply ;-) .
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 15
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:19:28 -0500
>From: Tommy Tolson <healinghawk at earthlink.net>
>Subject: [permaculture] Shit
>To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <4675EBB0.8050301 at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Robyn Francis wrote:
> >
> > IMO Looking at renewables to replace such a massive consumption of 
>energy is
> > a doomed techno-fix approach.
> > The permaculture approach would be to look first at where energy savings 
>can
> > be most effectively achieved. E.g. In the state of Qld 40% pf domestic
> > electricity is used for water heating, the state government has now made
> > solar water heaters mandatory for all new homes and offers subsidies for
> > homeowners to switch from electricity to solar.
> > Smart business initiatives are slashing power consumption on that front 
>e.g.
> > 20% power savings simply from switching off all computers & equipment of
> > stand-by and non-essential lighting at night when the office is closed.
> >
> > Once you start eliminating these excessive and wasteful demands on
> > production (and they really start to add up to substantial amounts once
> > there's a good number of strategies), then exploring the logistics of
> > renewable sources for essential needs become a far more feasible 
>exercise.
> >
> > Robyn
> >
> > "Change your life - not the climate"
> >
>In the US, 30% of total power consumption goes to facilitate citizens
>continuing to shit in their drinking water.
>We clear-cut forests in order to make paper with which to wipe our butts.
>Doesn't this indicate a serious problem with shitting somewhat ethically?
>I consider this to be the sort of energy problem that has potential to
>encourage a just, sacred, and sustainable society.
>Virtually no one is willing to be responsible for their own shit,
>literally (and figuratively, too).
>What would Permaculture do?
>In California, composting toilets are against state law as the only
>means of handling shit. A house must have a water toilet.
>Where I lived, in southern Santa Rosa, California, the ground water on
>the Santa Rosa Plain was all sewer water from local septic systems.
>To whom is this acceptable?
>Built wetlands have, as a by-product, septage that has to be transported
>off-site ever so often.
>/The Humanure Handbook/ does not show up in searches on BN.com or
>alibris.com.  Joseph Jenkins has shit figured out but no one likes his
>solution, apparently.
>How shall we shit so we can live with the results?
>
>Tommy Tolson
>Austin, TX
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 16
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:34:39 -0700
>From: Paul Cereghino <paul.cereghino at comcast.net>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Crabgrass, Bermuda grass, etc.
>To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <4675EF3F.2050009 at comcast.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>
> >I also noticed that places with plantago lanceolata and plantago maior
> >  (plantain) are free of crabgrass, but I don?t know how effective they
> >  are for combating this type of grass.
> >
> >
> >
>I associate plantain with poor winter drainage. Perhaps that is what the
>crabgrass can't take. I recall from unknown sources that winter rye is
>allelopathic, and so makes a good smother crop -- so confirmation
>through hearsay.
>Paul Cereghino
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 17
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:47:54 -0500
>From: Tommy Tolson <healinghawk at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,
>	deforestation
>To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <4675F25A.1040706 at earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Richard Heinberg's book, /The Party's Over/, pretty much documents each
>of Bob's points.  Heinberg's book is widely considered authoritative.
>If you haven't read it, prepare to be shocked.  Heinberg tells the
>truth.  He was my teacher at New College in Santa Rosa, California and
>changed my life forever.
>
>Tommy Tolson
>Austin, TX
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 18
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 20:08:16 -0700
>From: "Golden Love" <goldenlove at cruzio.com>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Crabgrass, Bermuda grass, etc.
>To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <009901c7b155$edd7fc40$6601a8c0 at LG1>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
>I fried my Bermuda and Kikuyu grass using black plastic tarps. None to be
>found now.
>
>Golden Love
>Love's Gardens
>Creating and Maintaining Sustainable Urban Landscapes
>California Licensed Contractor C27 363672
>127 National St.
>Santa Cruz, CA 95060
>Phone  (831) 471-9100
>Fax  ( 831) 471-9200
>goldenlove at cruzio.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>[mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Dieter Brand
>Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 2:58 AM
>To: permaculture
>Subject: [permaculture] Crabgrass, Bermuda grass, etc.
>
>Many thanks to all who replied in this thread. Apart from crabgrass
>   and Bermuda grass, there is also Kikuyu Grass. We are blessed with
>   all three of them. Among the 3 methods for controlling this type of
>   grass:
>
>   - applying lime,
>   - spreading partially decayed wood mulch
>   - growing rye or ryegrass,
>
>   I like the rye or ryegrass best, since it permits to grow new biomass
>   in the process. I actually had some patches with rye and ryegrass in
>   the winter, so far they seem to be free of crabgrass, but the real test
>   will come in the summer.
>
>   I also noticed that places with plantago lanceolata and plantago maior
>   (plantain) are free of crabgrass, but I don't know how effective they
>   are for combating this type of grass.
>
>   Dieter Brand
>   Portugal
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
>End of permaculture Digest, Vol 53, Issue 47
>********************************************

_________________________________________________________________
Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. 
http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2




More information about the permaculture mailing list