[permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 54, Issue 36

Linda Fletcher ghana_nkwanta at yahoo.com
Tue Jul 31 17:06:30 EDT 2007


Some one published some ideas for books to read on permaculture and I cannot find the email. Can some one please resend me the email. Thanks, Linda Fletcher

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Democratic solutions to Permacultures conflicts?
(bwaldrop at cox.net)
2. Re: Democratic solutions to Permacultures conflicts?
(lbsaltzman at aol.com)
3. Re: Democratic solutions to Permacultures conflicts?
(oliver smith callis)
4. Re: Democratic solutions to Permacultures conflicts?
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
5. [Fwd: [SANET-MG] Re. Colony collapse disorder/Nosema ceranae]
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
6. Re: Democratic solutions to Permacultures conflicts? (kevin s)
7. Community Building (lbsaltzman at aol.com)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:48:25 -0400
From: 
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Democratic solutions to Permacultures
conflicts?
To: permaculture 

Cc: toby at patternliteracy.com
Message-ID:
<19780774.1185727705615.JavaMail.root at eastrmwml25.mgt.cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I think the "top down" model is inherently a problem for permaculture. I suspect that the strongest national organizations grow from the bottom up. 

I have some small and successful experience in organizing, most recently, the Oklahoma Food Cooperative. In the beginning, I wrestled with the idea of "who am I to get this started"? I answered that by saying to myself, "I am the one who plants seed." The first thing I did was start a listserv discussion group, and I sent a message to all Oklahoma area groups and listservs that I thought would be interested.

This began a cyber-discussion, which led to a series of meetings held across the state. Each meeting elected a representative to an organizing committee. The organizing committee began to meet every month, and within six months we had decided on our cooperative form of organization, and began selling shares.

I think that the cooperative model (speaking of the legal structure known as a cooperative) has a lot of appeal for a national permaculture organization. The Oklahoma Food Cooperative has been self-financed from the beginning by the sale of member shares (at $50/each), and through commissions paid by the producers and customers who use our service. We the Oklahoma Food cooperative see ourselves as a service to these producers and customers.

The downside is that donations to cooperatives are generally not tax deductible, but one advantage is the sense of actual ownership and responsibility that comes with owning "one share of the Oklahoma Food Cooperative". I have heard that in some states it is possible to organize a "non-profit cooperative", but I don't know about the tax deductible status of such groups. One of the other local food cooperatives in another state that is following our model is organized as a "non-profit cooperative", and I will check with them to see if they are eligible for 501-c-3 tax deductions.

Another thing we could think about might be a series of workshops to work on a permaculture design for a national permaculture organization. This would have the advantage of supporting diverse, grassroots involvement. Through the design process, many questions about the organization could be developed and answered, and its structure, purpose, financing and etc could be described. A dedicated listserv for the purpose could be established to support the on-going development work. Just as with a regular PDC, people could pay to attend these workshops, thus providing financial support for the development process. The design could even be done as a "distance learning" event, such as the online Barking Frogs permaculture design course I have been involved with the past two years. This would allow people with travel and time issues to participate.

I personally think the "lineage" aspect of permaculture is one of its strengths. I suspect that while holding to core PC principles, each lineage has its own unique take on the subject matter and its application. A workable, effective, national permaculture organization would reflect the great diversity of the permaculture movement. One way to do that would be to identify the present teaching lineages, and then invite those lineages to appoint people to work on the permaculture design process for a national permaculture organization. Indeed, the eventual national board of directors could be elected by the present teaching lineages..

Finally, it may be that the reason that we don't have a national permaculture organization at this time is that "the time remains premature". Succession works in invisible structures, just as it does in meadows, prairies, forests, and permaculture projects. Jump-starting succession is always problematic, so that may have something to do with the problems thus far. Perhaps the time is ripe, though, for movement to a next stage.

Bob Waldrop, tadpole in training


---- toby at patternliteracy.com wrote: 
> Kevin et al,
> 
> I do think it's time for a national Pc organization in the US, and more broadly, an upgrading of what holding a PDC certificate means. Jedd made some excellent points, and as he suggests, there have been a number of attempts to form national or large regional membership organizations in the US. They have all failed. There were a couple of attempts before I was doing Pc that others can speak about, there was PINA (Pc Inst of North America) in the eighties, there is the dormant Eastern Permaculture Teachers Association, and there is the stillborn Western Permaculture Teachers Association. Principle difficulties have been burnout, lack of funding, lack of support, too little time to take on the enormous task of organizing, and difficulty in agreeing (or even determining) what the organization's function is. There is also a knee-jerk reaction: "Who are those people to create an organization?" which gets to the top-down issue. Thing is, those who are organizing would be
 delighte
d 
> if someone else wanted to do it, but no one does.
> 
> Questions need to be answered before the process can begin: 
> 
> 1. What is the function of the organization? To police teachers and enforce how the curriculum is taught, to get accreditation or other clout behind the certificate, to offer a clearing house for course resources, to raise money for Pc projects, or something else?
> 
> 2. How will people find the time and money to begin the organizing process? We're all busy, so how do we make time to meet? And setting up a non-profit takes lawyers, a website, and other things that cost money. Do the original organizers just dig into their pockets and pay, and take time away from other projects that may be more promising than one more try at organizing? (I shelled out a couple hundred bucks of my own money for WPTA and it's simply gone.)
> 
> 3. Who gets to organize it? Even the creation of an interim board causes a certain amount of resentment among those not on the board. And how do you draw committed and talented people to the organizing committee who will stick with it? All it took to kill WPTA was for a couple of the organizers to get too busy to reply to a couple of critical emails, and the project stalled. You need those one or two people who will spearhead and drive something to its end no matter what. That really means giving up all your other projects. You must find someone willing to make that level of commitment.
> 
> 4. How are decisions made? As Jedd said, majority rule can mean 49% or more may disagree with a decision, and consensus done as a national (non-face-to-face) organization would be pretty time consuming.
> 
> I can think of lots of other questions. Of course, all of these have been answered by the many groups that have formed national organzations, so it makes you wonder why permaculturists have been unable or unwilling to do so. I think Pc has made a huge amount of progress without one, but I also suspect we'd have university-level courses, accreditation, better-funded projects, and a better reputation and track record if we did. I agree that some of the inertia has come from a lack of trust in organizations, as well as a lack of perceived need. Perhaps Pc doesn't attract good organizers, although I don't see how that can be the case. Another challenge may be a lack of understanding how (and why) to structure a grass-roots, fairly anarchic movement into a national organization. But I would support, and even aid, an effort to do so.
> 
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> 
> 
> 



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:02:41 -0400
From: lbsaltzman at aol.com
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Democratic solutions to Permacultures
conflicts?
To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <8C9A021CA4D3CEC-86C-B0D4 at WEBMAIL-DB13.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

This is tricky, while certification and credentials demonstrating skill levels is important they can also evolve into the permaculture police. Some people completing a certificate have no business selling there services for much of anything, others may be as experienced and skilled in their areas of expertise as the person they took the course from, in which case the course is simply the conceptual framework around which they can use their existing skills.?I also believe that there is a danger of the most anal-compulsive types gathering like bees around honey to develop and rigidly enforce rules.

But there is another purpose a national organization can have and that is to promote the message of Permaculture and to serve an important educational P.R. function.


-----Original Message-----
From: toby at patternliteracy.com
To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 8:22 am
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Democratic solutions to Permacultures conflicts?



Kevin et al,

I do think it's time for a national Pc organization in the US, and more broadly, 
an upgrading of what holding a PDC certificate means. Jedd made some excellent 
points, and as he suggests, there have been a number of attempts to form 
national or large regional membership organizations in the US. They have all 
failed. There were a couple of attempts before I was doing Pc that others can 
speak about, there was PINA (Pc Inst of North America) in the eighties, there is 
the dormant Eastern Permaculture Teachers Association, and there is the 
stillborn Western Permaculture Teachers Association. Principle difficulties have 
been burnout, lack of funding, lack of support, too little time to take on the 
enormous task of organizing, and difficulty in agreeing (or even determining) 
what the organization's function is. There is also a knee-jerk reaction: "Who 
are those people to create an organization?" which gets to the top-down issue. 
Thing is, those who are organizing would be delighted 
if someone else wanted to do it, but no one does.

Questions need to be answered before the process can begin: 

1. What is the function of the organization? To police teachers and enforce how 
the curriculum is taught, to get accreditation or other clout behind the 
certificate, to offer a clearing house for course resources, to raise money for 
Pc projects, or something else?

2. How will people find the time and money to begin the organizing process? 
We're all busy, so how do we make time to meet? And setting up a non-profit 
takes lawyers, a website, and other things that cost money. Do the original 
organizers just dig into their pockets and pay, and take time away from other 
projects that may be more promising than one more try at organizing? (I shelled 
out a couple hundred bucks of my own money for WPTA and it's simply gone.)

3. Who gets to organize it? Even the creation of an interim board causes a 
certain amount of resentment among those not on the board. And how do you draw 
committed and talented people to the organizing committee who will stick with 
it? All it took to kill WPTA was for a couple of the organizers to get too busy 
to reply to a couple of critical emails, and the project stalled. You need those 
one or two people who will spearhead and drive something to its end no matter 
what. That really means giving up all your other projects. You must find someone 
willing to make that level of commitment.

4. How are decisions made? As Jedd said, majority rule can mean 49% or more may 
disagree with a decision, and consensus done as a national (non-face-to-face) 
organization would be pretty time consuming.

I can think of lots of other questions. Of course, all of these have been 
answered by the many groups that have formed national organzations, so it makes 
you wonder why permaculturists have been unable or unwilling to do so. I think 
Pc has made a huge amount of progress without one, but I also suspect we'd have 
university-level courses, accreditation, better-funded projects, and a better 
reputation and track record if we did. I agree that some of the inertia has come 
from a lack of trust in organizations, as well as a lack of perceived need. 
Perhaps Pc doesn't attract good organizers, although I don't see how that can be 
the case. Another challenge may be a lack of understanding how (and why) to 
structure a grass-roots, fairly anarchic movement into a national organization. 
But I would support, and even aid, an effort to do so.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
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permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:13:23 -0600
From: "oliver smith callis" 
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Democratic solutions to Permacultures
conflicts?
To: permaculture 

Message-ID:
<9e4c50650707291313v3a00d8bcm9d11089b1a37a9bd at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I think that Bob Waldrop brings up some great ideas. Particularly about
collectively designing the nature of a National PC organization/organism,
and the ideas of lineage or "family/clan/tribe relations. Here in Utah
Valley, Ut, we are beginning to design a Permaculture Institute to serve as
a means of building community around Permaculture in our
Bioregion/Watershed. I also have struggled with the question as to "who am I
to presume to set up such an organization in my community", not even having
been certified yet - although I have been studying intensively over the last
3 years. I fall back on the observation that there is a niche that needs to
be filled as far as permaculture design within my community, and I can plant
a seed even as I work towards ceritification/diplomaship. We have determined
that our purpose as a Permaculture institute is to work to provide a "big
picture" for the restoration of our watershed, or to provide top down
thinking for our bottom up, coalition/community building. I assume that our
design will increasingly evolve and change the more a community grows around
and is involved in the discussion. Could this national/regional
organization(ism)'s purpose be to build consensus around a top down thinking
for the grassroots permaculture movement as to how we restore our greater
watershed(s): of North/Central/South America (as we are talking specifically
about this bit of the world). It seems to me that the issue of certification
will take a back seat to and be simply a tool for the accomplishment of our
collective objective (i.e. of regenerating our land base and facilitating
the development of a resilient, decentralized permaculture network).


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:49:44 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." 
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Democratic solutions to Permacultures
conflicts?
To: permaculture 

Message-ID: <46AD0B78.8050503 at intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

oliver smith callis wrote:

> It seems to me that the issue of certification
> will take a back seat to and be simply a tool for the accomplishment of our
> collective objective (i.e. of regenerating our land base and facilitating
> the development of a resilient, decentralized permaculture network).

I think it would be a better idea to make certification central to your community/bioregion design process.
Every time I read Scott Pittman on this list, this idea gets reinforced, his last post being one of the better examples.
With that you have a set of core values to reflect on and base your design specs on. You can improve on that later on 
but you have to have a common starting point for everyone. Without making certification
step one you may be putting the cart before the horse. With everyone on the same page, passing tests and getting their 
diploma, they have a common knowledgebase and a commonality of having gone through the certification process together 
something that will have a significant bonding effect. As you design your community and bioregion you will all be 
talking the same language but with an infinitude of variations provided by each individual's interpretation leading to a 
robust synthesis and enhanced group knowledgebase.

I don't know how much work it would be to find the certifier and organize an ongoing certification program to serve the 
entire community but maybe a few could take the training, get certified as teachers as well as designers then the
group would become a "self" certifying entity; in other words spawn a generation of PC teacher-certifiers. This might be 
a good plan to use on a national or even international scale, at least for North America.
-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lflj at intrex.net
lfljvfarm at gmail.com
Venaura Farm http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
Market Farming & Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?PermacultureWiki
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?SoilWiki



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 22:09:26 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." 
Subject: [permaculture] [Fwd: [SANET-MG] Re. Colony collapse
disorder/Nosema ceranae]
To: permaculture 

Message-ID: <46AD4856.6000708 at intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [SANET-MG] Re. Colony collapse disorder/Nosema ceranae
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:08:44 -0700
From: Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society) 
Reply-To: mdshepherd at xerces.org
To: SANET-MG at LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

Misha asked if I was here. Well, I am, lurking quietly in the shadows of
this listserv.

To be honest, I don't follow every turn of the CCD story. I don't
consider myself a honey bee expert, and as an organization, The Xerces
Society doesn't work on honey bee conservation. The focus of our
pollinator conservation efforts has been native pollinators, promoting
protection of them and the creation of habitat for them. Of course,
native bees and honey bees share a lot of territory and habitat
needs, so much of the work we do to encourage habitat

=== message truncated ===

       
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