[permaculture] Re: Permaculture on Pitcairn

dwayne dwayne at pobox.com
Wed Jul 9 17:04:09 EDT 2003

John Schinnerer wrote:
> > Well, no, if there's not enough people there, they will move elsewhere.
> > It's a major problem with country towns in Australia.  I'm guessing at
> > what "social viability" is, by the way.
> I meant inviting genetic material from elsewhere to expand their pool.
> Strictly their choice of course.

But that's genetic viability.
I'm discussing social viability.

Of course, the same solution applies, bring in more people.

Aaaaand I'm still not sure I'm understanding "social viability"
properly, anyway.
> >> For whom, when?
> >
> > The Colonial Powers you refer to.
> That's *a* reality, to be sure, but not one I much care to support.

Either way, they are the ones who smashed up the First Peoples, they are
the ones still controlling nearly all of the world's wealth, and they
are the ones who need to be convinced to hand some of it back, or else
swept aside to allow some real sharing to take place.  You can deny it's
existence, but it is there nevertheless.

> There's already enough people backing them, actively or passively as the
> case may be.

Yes, which is exactly why I made my comment. As things stand, there's
close to zero chance of the world being repaired post-colonialism. This
sucks, but that's how it is.  As an historian, and I've thought a lot
about this, I feel that the greatest crime in the history of the human
race, when we look back at it, will be the destruction of the millennia
of wisdom non-european culture have gathered down the course of history.

I can't see violent revolution and redistribution coming soon, but
perhaps education might convinced 1st world people to do something.

> > Take your snide assertions and place them where your understanding of
> > geopolitics is, thanks.
> They're already there.  I understand the geopolitics - that doesn't mean I
> have to like them, or cease to desire alternatives.

Maybe so but you still need to acknowledge their existence.
> I simply have no patience with people who say "I support that 100%, and
> it's never going to happen."

So? Cope.  

Just because you have no patience does not mean you can be rude, and I
can guarantee I won't put up with it. I have no idea how this list works
with regard to flames and nastiness. I'm prepared to find out, but I'd
*much* rather not, and I'd *much* rather we all play nice, and behave
like adults.

Now, occasionally I might fly off the handle. In which case I'm prepared
to be called out on it, and I'll back down. I'm also prepared to
massively over-react if I'm attacked, to ensure it won't happen again,
but I'd *much* rather not, and I'd *much* rather we all play nice, and
behave like adults.  I've been writing online for a very long time, I
know how the game works.

> For me those are contradictory statements.  If I support something, I take
> action on that, or at least refrain from acting against it.  When I say
> "it ain't gonna happen" I'm taking action against it happening. 

I completely disagree.  You may recognise the impossibility of the
situation while still either hoping it is not the case, or else trying
to overcome it anyway in the hope that either you will succeed, or you
might inspire enough people to eventually get the numbers behind you to
succeed. Or just eventually die feeling smug, righteous and vindicated

> YMMV, though not IMO.

Well, bully for you. 

And how would you know how my mileage varies?

I, however, am of the opinion that while it *should* happen, it is
unlikely to happen in my lifetime, if ever. Will I do what I can to
redress it? If I can yes. Am I wasting my time? Possibly, but I feel we
have a moral duty to do *something*.

> > I think that the colonial powers should make full and just reparations.
> > But I can't see how it is going to happen without massive, world-wide,
> > universal action.  This, and slavery, has already been brought up at
> > that UN racism conference and was totally rejected by the colonial
> > powers.
> So those of us who would like to see it happen can keep working on it.

Sure, exactly.

Even if we do not get to the goal, the journey is worth it, and each
step towards it is a step making the world a much better place.

> Who is it that says "...of course it is impossible, so it will take
> longer" - That's more or less my attitude.

I agree. Thus my comment.

               mailto:ddraig at pobox.com  
it's nice to be better, but it's much better to be nice

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