[permaculture] RE: worm troubles

Chuck & Linda clearned at bminet.com
Sun Dec 21 12:34:39 EST 2003


Darko,

Anna Eddy in MA has had this system in operation for nearly ten years. She
states the worms and the area inside the box have always been warm even in
the winter, she didn't have a vent stack however, but she did insulate.

Mike and John,
Thanks for your thoughts, I think this idea of a light flap is a good one, I
am wondering how that would be viewed by codes. Another person suggested
putting in an extra loop in the vent so the cold air would be trapped at the
low end of the loop. This would require a fan though. Having continuous air
flow is a good design feature to keep oxygen levels high, at the same time
anything you do to restrict air flow diminishes this design goal. The
question is how do you have high oxygen levels and a warm chamber?
Chuck

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Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Poplar trees may be new draw for pig farms (Rick Valley)
   2. worm troubles (Chuck & Linda)
   3. Re: worm troubles (darko nikolic)
   4. Re: Ecological impact of flying (John Schinnerer)
   5. Re: worm troubles (Marimike6 at cs.com)
   6. Re: worm troubles (John Schinnerer)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:56:18 -0700
From: Rick Valley <bamboogrove at cmug.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Poplar trees may be new draw for pig farms
To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BC08B401.C001%bamboogrove at cmug.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"


> Poplars also a good species with which to do biotecture so that you
> could weave/bind the branches of closely spaced poplar plantings to
> make a virtually impenetrable ( and decorative) fence/fedge.

Perhaps impenetrable to city folk. Animals on the other hand...
Biotechture is cool, but it is to be considered that regular trimming- 3
times a year or so- will be needed with a fast growing tree like poplar,
because any big cut will open the tree to rot. (try oyster mushrooms)

I certainly agree with all the uses for poplar that have been mentioned. BUT
they are invasive, particularly via root. And you do want to avoid clonal
(from cuttings) reproduction from a single source unless you need uniform
genetics and are willing to leave your planting vulnerable to plague (as
happened in NZ with Lombardy Poplar)
Even native poplar stands tend to have low floral species diversity probably
due to shade and root competion. (personnal observation and cited in D.
Theodoropoulos "Invasion Biology" with cottonwood compared to Tamarisk)

If you can have a polyculture with bamboo, you've got a species involved
that will use the nutrients even in winter when the poplar has no leaves on.

I do plant poplar sometimes. Just not in plantations or hedges.

-Rick












------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:17:32 -0600
From: "Chuck & Linda" <clearned at bminet.com>
Subject: [permaculture] worm troubles
To: <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <001b01c3c66d$222fd1c0$d01baacf at bmi>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I am doing some serious head scratching and could sure use any thoughts
folks might have: I am  preparing my wastewater submission plan to  the
state of WI. My concern is with venting what I call the "Vermiculture Based
Unsaturated Aerobic Bio Filter"  I will be flushing my toilets through this
VBUABF. This filter has a biomix of semi composted leaves and woodchips and
the worms, the glorious worms make it work by consuming the "bio solids" all
the while turning and aerating the mix creating thousands of pasage ways for
the effluent to flow through and be aerobically cleansed by beneficial
organisms and bacteria. The effluent will drain on to my leachfield.

My problem is I live in brrrrrr Wisconsin. The VBUABF is going to hang out
in the greenhouse in an insulated container, this is good as worms like to
be in a temp range of 68F to 80F(just like us!)  However all toilets need to
be vented as the air is displaced when the waste enters the filter basin.
Venting indoors requires me to run a vent stack to the sky. So here lies my
problem 0 degree temperatures dropping down ontop of the worms. They head
south to the bottom of the box and take a nap because their house is cold. I
need my worms to be happy and comfy and still have ventilation taking place.

I thought of having an inline ventilation fan that force the air through
some kind of an air valve in the vent stack however I don't really want a
fan continuously running. Any suggestions? I know the www.biolytix.com folks
in Australia appear to just vent with an open vent but heh there not in
Wisconsin.
Chuck

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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:26:20 -0800 (PST)
From: darko nikolic <seaturtle333 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] worm troubles
To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20031219232620.18647.qmail at web60806.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Chuck & Linda,
   Your project sounds pretty remarkable. I wonder if
the biological processes would generate enough heat to
keep the worms happy in the winter. Provided there was
enough room in the containment for the pile or column
to get bigger and provide more heat in the center.
This was my experience with a compost that employed
warms to do the breakdown.

~Darko


--- Chuck & Linda <clearned at bminet.com> wrote:
> I am doing some serious head scratching and could
> sure use any thoughts
> folks might have: I am  preparing my wastewater
> submission plan to  the
> state of WI. My concern is with venting what I call
> the "Vermiculture Based
> Unsaturated Aerobic Bio Filter"  I will be flushing
> my toilets through this
> VBUABF. This filter has a biomix of semi composted
> leaves and woodchips and
> the worms, the glorious worms make it work by
> consuming the "bio solids" all
> the while turning and aerating the mix creating
> thousands of pasage ways for
> the effluent to flow through and be aerobically
> cleansed by beneficial
> organisms and bacteria. The effluent will drain on
> to my leachfield.
>
> My problem is I live in brrrrrr Wisconsin. The
> VBUABF is going to hang out
> in the greenhouse in an insulated container, this is
> good as worms like to
> be in a temp range of 68F to 80F(just like us!)
> However all toilets need to
> be vented as the air is displaced when the waste
> enters the filter basin.
> Venting indoors requires me to run a vent stack to
> the sky. So here lies my
> problem 0 degree temperatures dropping down ontop of
> the worms. They head
> south to the bottom of the box and take a nap
> because their house is cold. I
> need my worms to be happy and comfy and still have
> ventilation taking place.
>
> I thought of having an inline ventilation fan that
> force the air through
> some kind of an air valve in the vent stack however
> I don't really want a
> fan continuously running. Any suggestions? I know
> the www.biolytix.com folks
> in Australia appear to just vent with an open vent
> but heh there not in
> Wisconsin.
> Chuck
>
> ---
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> Checked by AVG anti-virus system
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> Date: 12/11/03
> > _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>


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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:25:45 -0800 (PST)
From: "John Schinnerer" <john at eco-living.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ecological impact of flying
To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
	<2294.172.192.234.164.1071879945.squirrel at www.eco-living.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

Aloha,

I have also read that a full, large passenger plane is quite efficient in
fuel
used (relatively speaking, vs. other machines) per passenger mile.

I read of a Dutch study some years ago (late 80's maybe) that said if the
estimated total of the world's air travel were to be equally distributed
between all the world's population, each person would get the equivalent of
one (one-way) trip across the Atlantic...

> We have realised a personnal footprint test
> for which after study we proposed the following value :
> one hour of plane requires 500 m² of living-earth ressources...
> But I recently heard a planecompanyworker state
> that 100 km of a big plane requires only one litter of gazoil
> for each passenger when the plane is full and is economicaly driven.
> I was quite surprise, and I think it is worth investigating !
> JLuc



John Schinnerer - MA, Whole Systems Design
------------------------------------------
- Eco-Living -
Cultural & Ecological Designing
People - Place - Learning - Integration
john at eco-living.net
http://eco-living.net

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:59:29 EST
From: Marimike6 at cs.com
Subject: Re: [permaculture] worm troubles
To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <70.365f56b5.2d14f8f1 at cs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In a message dated 12/19/2003 3:09:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
clearned at bminet.com writes:
> However all toilets need to be vented as the air is displaced when the
> waste enters the filter basin. Venting indoors requires me to run a vent
stack to
> the sky. So here lies my problem 0 degree temperatures dropping down ontop
> of the worms.

Dear Chuck--

This may be simplistic, but how about putting a hinged pot-lid on your vent
stack? You may have to attach a penny or two as a counterweight, but if you
get
the lid to lift open with a slight positive pressure from below, it should
work just fine-- keeping normally in the closed position. This is how they
solve
the problem with furnace vents.

Mike Elvin
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:16:43 -0800 (PST)
From: "John Schinnerer" <john at eco-living.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] worm troubles
To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
	<3542.172.192.234.164.1071883003.squirrel at www.eco-living.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

Aloha,

Two suggestions:

1.  What Mike Elvin already suggested

2.  A "U" at the top of the vent pipe, so the open end is down rather than
up(no moving parts).  This would work OK if you always have a slight
outflow,
but otherwise the flap might be better.

>
> I thought of having an inline ventilation fan that force the air through
> some kind of an air valve in the vent stack however I don't really want a
> fan continuously running. Any suggestions? I know the www.biolytix.com
folks
> in Australia appear to just vent with an open vent but heh there not in
> Wisconsin.
> Chuck
>
>

John Schinnerer - MA, Whole Systems Design
------------------------------------------
- Eco-Living -
Cultural & Ecological Designing
People - Place - Learning - Integration
john at eco-living.net
http://eco-living.net

------------------------------

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19
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