permaculture digest: November 17, 2000

Sat Nov 18 01:08:38 EST 2000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Epp" <for7gen at IDIOM.COM>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 2:26 PM
Subject: EPA Starlink public comment points to make

The EPA needs to hear from us if it is to be prevented from letting
Aventis off the hook for as much as $1 billion in damages its
genetically engineered Starlink corn has caused.

Greenpeace info & online comment submission:

official EPA notice:

email comments to opp-docket at
be sure to identify docket control number PF-867B

You can also tell these officials what you think:
Administrator Carol Browner, EPA, 1200 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington DC
Commissioner Jane Henney, FDA, 5600 Fishers Ln, Rockville MD 20857
Secretary of Agriculture Dan Glickman, USDA, 1400 Independence Ave,
Washington DC 20250

Some points to make:

Don't allow them to narrowly focus on human health damage. That is a set-up
for letting Aventis off the hook, since it is too early to have significant
conclusive evidence.

Don't allow them to narrowly focus on allergenicity. Other forms of health
damage, ecological risks, and effects of consumption on animals also need
to be researched before any approval can be considered.

There must be strict labelling and segregation of all GE products
so future problems can be identified and sources traced.
Regular testing to verify compliance must be paid for by the biotech
industry but conducted by people who are independent of industry influence.

The current policy of laissez-faire abdication of serious regulatory
control over GE and trusting the industry has failed and must be
replaced by stringent requirements for comprehensive data on long-term
health and ecological consequences before any product is allowed on the

Require Aventis to post a bond to cover damage not found until later.

Epidemiological studies to determine the extent of the damage should be
conducted by completely independent researchers and Aventis should be
required to pay all the costs.

There must be no escape or limitation from full liability.
Aventis must be required to compensate all consumers, farmers, and
businesses that suffered damages, and must pay all costs of identifying
and quantifying what the damages were.

Spread the word.

Walter Epp    for7gen at


Subject: Re: permaculture digest: November 14, 2000
From: rick valley <bamboogrove at>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 00 11:21:11 -0700
X-Message-Number: 2

L L asked:
>Do you do landscape design/contracting or the same
>with influences from permaculture or strictly permaculture design?
I guess the answer is yes; I don't contract, mostly design & consult, work
with friends who are contractors sometimes, and take work only if it is
permaculturally correct by my view. That is, the place may not be a Pc
design, but I'll be working on an aspect that is, or I may be brought in to
do the broad-view part of it, or... I may or may not use the "P" word.
Actually, many of the roughest times I've had were with people who wanted=


Subject: Clever PC pre-columbians in Nature
From: "John Schinnerer" <johns at>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:48:17 -0800
X-Message-Number: 4


There was an article in the NY times a few days ago, referring to a recent
article in the journal Nature, which presented some theories on rather
PC-like land use in South America, pre-Columbus.  Basically, there is
physical evidence (earthworks) in the landscape that seasonal wet/dry
savannah areas supported much larger populations than we "contemporary"
types would think possible.  The inhabitants apparently built large ponds
and canal networks to retain wet-season flood water and fish through the
dry season, with palms planted along the canals and most likely fish weirs
in them...haven't seen the full article but it sounds like interesting

John Schinnerer
Human Habitat Design
Cultural & Ecological Designing
johns at

John, there are a lot of sites in South and Meso America identified as
raised ridge and mound man-made topography in either seasonally flooded
savanna and grassland or highland wetland/lakes. Most were of agricultural
use, those in the valley of modern Mexico City were man-made floating
islands (milpas) described glowingly by Spanish conquerers for the abundance
of flowers and food crops.  Dr. Willam Deneven studied the Mojos complex in
the 1960s and 70s, discovering them from aerial photography from the 1940's
(I think) and mapping and studying them.  Around Lake Titicaca, agricultural
ridges were built into the lake using reeds, other om and mud. Lots of
examples of the human quest to wrest a living in unforgiving environments.

                 My question is. . . would it be safe to use clippings from
those lawns that had been treated with say glyphophosphates? What length of
time should I wait after they spray to use their yard debris? Please don't
tell me three years or something like that. . .

                  --Donahuer at

After how you expressed yourself, why would even consider using this
material.  By the way, what is "glyphophosphates?"

If you are planning to do hot composting properly, than by the end of the 6
months process you will have a safe product.  If you are planning to just
spread the treated materials under your shrubs you might find some residual
effects...all depends on what was used, when and how long before you used
it.  Remember, if you smell it, it is in your bloodstream already.


More information about the permaculture mailing list