From pieter at roosensdesign.com Tue Dec 5 04:23:05 2006 From: pieter at roosensdesign.com (Pieter Roosens) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 10:23:05 +0100 Subject: [Cc-be] Sabam In-Reply-To: <622918ba0611241004u56d673c1rfa393a10c475609a@mail.gmail.com> References: <622918ba0611241004u56d673c1rfa393a10c475609a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Michel, Although I am not a lawyer I think you got the permission from the artists to play their music, because them using the CC-license. Sabam has a problem with CC because they say they cannot collect in different ways for different songs. The artists have a contract with Sabam, giving Sabam exclusive rights to collect. So I think the artists have a problem with Sabam if they are members. This is only my opinion, but shure there is a lot going on about this issue nowadays, because the big conflict between the way Sabam works and the new media ... To be continued ... Pieter Op 24-nov-06, om 19:04 heeft Michel Berghs het volgende geschreven: > Hello CC Belgium, > I have a question regarding CC-music and Sabam. In the first half of > 2006 I organised with my non-profit organisation (MUP) 6 parties (free > entrance). On these parties I only played music that I downloaded from > archive.org, all songs coming with a CC-license. Sabam did a short > inspection on 2 parties. A half year later they sent a bill for the > six parties. > Question: does playing songs fall under the CC-license, is it a form > of distribution, or is it an apart form that falls under Sabam > restrictions? If an artist is a member of Sabam, but publishes a song > under the CC-license, can I play this song without paying Sabam? If > not, what's the use of this license, that tells that you can > distribute this song for free (in the presumption that playing is > distributing)? > In other words: do I have to pay Sabam? > > Thank you for your cooperation, > Michel Berghs, > chairman vzw. MUP > website: www.netlabelism.net > > -- > Jedermann sein eigner Fussball ! > > www.netlabelism.net > www.radioscorpio.com/netwaves > www.archive.org/details/netwaves > > +32 484 61 80 87 > _______________________________________________ > Cc-be mailing list > Cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-be From wim.schreurs at vub.ac.be Wed Dec 6 04:07:44 2006 From: wim.schreurs at vub.ac.be (Wim Schreurs) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:07:44 +0100 Subject: [Cc-be] Cc-be Digest, Vol 18, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, I think the answer may be the following: 1. In principle, this communication to the public falls under Sabam and other collecting society's 'jurisdiction' or competence to collect. 2. If the authors-composers are not a member of Sabam or an affiliated collecting society of Sabam, the latters don't have the right to collect because they do not present a member. 3. If only some of the authors-composers are member of Sabam or its affiliates, then there should be a proportional payment to Sabam (who collects for its affiliates and the songs are in the 'catalogue' of these societies). 4. If the songs are put under cc label while the authors-composers are at the same time members of Sabam or an affiliated collecting society, then you should not pay because it is them and not you who have a problem breaking their contract with Sabam/collecting society (if Sabam/a collecting society has indeed the rights) and commun icating to you that you can use the music according to their cc license. Kind regards, Wim Schreurs -----Original Message----- From: cc-be-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:cc-be-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of cc-be-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: dinsdag 5 december 2006 18:00 To: cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Cc-be Digest, Vol 18, Issue 1 Send Cc-be mailing list submissions to cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-be or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cc-be-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at cc-be-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Cc-be digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Sabam (Michel Berghs) 2. Re: Sabam (Pieter Roosens) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:04:04 +0100 From: "Michel Berghs" Subject: [Cc-be] Sabam To: cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org Message-ID: <622918ba0611241004u56d673c1rfa393a10c475609a at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hello CC Belgium, I have a question regarding CC-music and Sabam. In the first half of 2006 I organised with my non-profit organisation (MUP) 6 parties (free entrance). On these parties I only played music that I downloaded from archive.org, all songs coming with a CC-license. Sabam did a short inspection on 2 parties. A half year later they sent a bill for the six parties. Question: does playing songs fall under the CC-license, is it a form of distribution, or is it an apart form that falls under Sabam restrictions? If an artist is a member of Sabam, but publishes a song under the CC-license, can I play this song without paying Sabam? If not, what's the use of this license, that tells that you can distribute this song for free (in the presumption that playing is distributing)? In other words: do I have to pay Sabam? Thank you for your cooperation, Michel Berghs, chairman vzw. MUP website: www.netlabelism.net -- Jedermann sein eigner Fussball ! www.netlabelism.net www.radioscorpio.com/netwaves www.archive.org/details/netwaves +32 484 61 80 87 ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 10:23:05 +0100 From: Pieter Roosens Subject: Re: [Cc-be] Sabam To: cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi Michel, Although I am not a lawyer I think you got the permission from the artists to play their music, because them using the CC-license. Sabam has a problem with CC because they say they cannot collect in different ways for different songs. The artists have a contract with Sabam, giving Sabam exclusive rights to collect. So I think the artists have a problem with Sabam if they are members. This is only my opinion, but shure there is a lot going on about this issue nowadays, because the big conflict between the way Sabam works and the new media ... To be continued ... Pieter Op 24-nov-06, om 19:04 heeft Michel Berghs het volgende geschreven: > Hello CC Belgium, > I have a question regarding CC-music and Sabam. In the first half of > 2006 I organised with my non-profit organisation (MUP) 6 parties (free > entrance). On these parties I only played music that I downloaded from > archive.org, all songs coming with a CC-license. Sabam did a short > inspection on 2 parties. A half year later they sent a bill for the > six parties. > Question: does playing songs fall under the CC-license, is it a form > of distribution, or is it an apart form that falls under Sabam > restrictions? If an artist is a member of Sabam, but publishes a song > under the CC-license, can I play this song without paying Sabam? If > not, what's the use of this license, that tells that you can > distribute this song for free (in the presumption that playing is > distributing)? > In other words: do I have to pay Sabam? > > Thank you for your cooperation, > Michel Berghs, > chairman vzw. MUP > website: www.netlabelism.net > > -- > Jedermann sein eigner Fussball ! > > www.netlabelism.net > www.radioscorpio.com/netwaves > www.archive.org/details/netwaves > > +32 484 61 80 87 > _______________________________________________ > Cc-be mailing list > Cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-be ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Cc-be mailing list Cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-be End of Cc-be Digest, Vol 18, Issue 1 ************************************ From michel at netlabelism.net Sat Dec 16 16:42:21 2006 From: michel at netlabelism.net (Michel Berghs) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:42:21 +0100 Subject: [Cc-be] =?iso-8859-1?q?blog_cc_belgi=EB?= Message-ID: <622918ba0612161342g64115db3wdb9aaa766634b36d@mail.gmail.com> English text at the bottom. Hallo, op m'n vernieuwde website wil ik CC-Belgi? bloggen, maar aangezien ik geen deskundige of echte kenner ben had ik graag wat medewerking gehad; ik stel een deel van m'n website ter beschikking van CC-Belgi? omdat ik denk dat bloggen over Creative Commons een bredere discussie op gang brengt. Elke inbreng meer dan welkom. Hello, I want to share a part of my website with CC-Belgium, because this forum is too hidden for people who are interested in the Creative Commons. I believe that blogging about this issue will generate a more wide discussion. Any contribution more than welcome. Michel Berghs -- Jedermann sein eigner Fussball ! www.netlabelism.net www.radioscorpio.com/netwaves www.archive.org/details/netwaves +32 484 61 80 87 From mvdborre at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 16:56:52 2006 From: mvdborre at gmail.com (Mark Van den Borre) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 21:56:52 -0000 Subject: [Cc-be] Sabam In-Reply-To: <622918ba0611241004u56d673c1rfa393a10c475609a@mail.gmail.com> References: <622918ba0611241004u56d673c1rfa393a10c475609a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d731d6e0612041356r5aea7841n4906d5348b0c16bc@mail.gmail.com> 2006/11/24, Michel Berghs : > Question: does playing songs fall under the CC-license, is it a form > of distribution, or is it an apart form that falls under Sabam > restrictions? If an artist is a member of Sabam, but publishes a song > under the CC-license, can I play this song without paying Sabam? If > not, what's the use of this license, that tells that you can > distribute this song for free (in the presumption that playing is > distributing)? > In other words: do I have to pay Sabam? Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer AT ALL. It is not possible for a Sabam member to release a work under a Creative Commons license. I am not sure what the consequences would be. The work would probably be undistributable because of licensing conflicts. My common sense suggests me it would be the artist who would be screwed. He has given you a right that he doesn't possess. So go, SABAM, sue your members! Mark -- Mark Van den Borre Noormannenstraat 113 3000 Leuven, Belgi? +32 486 961726 From amkrisis at lipstickparty.com Mon Dec 11 16:53:24 2006 From: amkrisis at lipstickparty.com (AM Krisis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:53:24 +0100 Subject: [Cc-be] cdr label under CC? Message-ID: Hi I'm writing this in English to reach as many people as possible. I'm thinking of setting up a cdr label. Not to make money but more as a gateway, to give interesting music the exposure it deserves. So i will actualy be selling the music (i won't be making any profit, it's just productioncosts + a small fee for the artists). Could CC be suitable for me? I was thinking that "Attribution - NoDrivs" might be interesting? But what about the actual sales? I would also make them available on sites and a few local stores. is that possible? As far as other legal stuff, a vzw is out of order (i need three people, and i'm alone), so what about an 'additional proffesion'? (don't know the exact english word for it) is this necessary? I want to keep it as legal as possible ... Any help is welcome! Thank you! Benny From Benny.Vermeulen at staff.telenet.be Wed Dec 13 02:18:09 2006 From: Benny.Vermeulen at staff.telenet.be (Vermeulen Benny) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:18:09 +0100 Subject: [Cc-be] CC voor platenlabel? Message-ID: <19753C8926CAF74C9F82CA58DDA68DB904E65D8B@PROD31.prod.telenet.be> Hallo Ik run een underground platenlabel maar wil mijn artiesten toch wat (laten) beschermen. Ik zal hun werk echter wel verkopen, kan CC dan handig zijn? En in welke vorm? Ik (of de artiesten) zullen er geen probleem van maken dat het werk gekopieerd mag worden. Maar verkopen zou enkel mogen door mij de winkels die van mij de cd's toekrijgen. Alle hulp en tips zijn welkom! Groeten Benny ************************************************************* Dit e-mail bericht inclusief eventuele ingesloten bestanden kan informatie bevatten die vertrouwelijk is en/of beschermd door intellectuele eigendomsrechten. Dit bericht is uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde(n). Elk gebruik van de informatie vervat in dit bericht (waaronder de volledige of gedeeltelijke reproductie of verspreiding onder elke vorm) door andere personen dan de geadresseerde(n) is verboden. Indien u dit bericht per vergissing heeft ontvangen, gelieve de afzender hiervan te verwittigen en dit bericht te verwijderen. This e-mail and any attachment thereto may contain information which is confidential and/or protected by intellectual property rights and are intended for the sole use of the addressees. Any use of the information contained herein (including but not limited to total or partial reproduction or distribution in any form) by other persons than the addressees is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete its contents. Ce courriel et les annexes ?ventuelles peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles et/ou prot?g?es par des droits de propri?t? intellectuelle. Ce message est adress? exclusivement ? son (ses) destinataire(s). Toute utilisation du contenu de ce message (y compris la reproduction ou diffusion partielle ou compl?te sous toute forme) par une autre personne que le(s) destinataire(s) est formellement interdite. Si vous avez re?u ce message par erreur, veuillez pr?venir l'exp?diteur du message et en d?truire le contenu. ************************************************************* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-be/attachments/20061213/d2e2c85d/attachment.html From mark at markvdb.be Wed Dec 20 03:57:41 2006 From: mark at markvdb.be (Mark Van den Borre) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 09:57:41 +0100 Subject: [Cc-be] cdr label under CC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d731d6e0612200057se636a7nf3e1c07a728570a6@mail.gmail.com> 2006/12/11, AM Krisis : > Hi Hi! > I'm writing this in English to reach as many people as possible. > I'm thinking of setting up a cdr label. Not to make money but more as > a gateway, to give interesting music the exposure it deserves. Have a look at the successful existing ones, like magnatune.com. > So i will actualy be selling the music (i won't be making any profit, > it's just productioncosts + a small fee for the artists). Could CC be > suitable for me? I was thinking that "Attribution - NoDrivs" might be > interesting? Why no derivatives? I'd suggest Attribution-ShareAlike. Think about it. > But what about the actual sales? I would also make them available on > sites and a few local stores. is that possible? Sure. > As far as other legal stuff, a vzw is out of order (i need three > people, and i'm alone), so what about an 'additional proffesion'? > (don't know the exact english word for it) is this necessary? I want > to keep it as legal as possible ... Go to an information session of your local enterprise desk ('ondernemingsloket). Consult a good accountant. Or if you want to set up a non-profit, consult Procura or VSDC (google those). Oh, and consult a good lawyer. Belgian law and SABAM are subject Franz Kafka could have written a very interesting novel about. Mark -- Mark Van den Borre Noormannenstraat 113 3000 Leuven, Belgi? +32 486 961726 From frederik at questier.com Wed Dec 20 05:32:43 2006 From: frederik at questier.com (Frederik Questier) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:32:43 +0100 Subject: [Cc-be] Sabam In-Reply-To: <6d731d6e0612041356r5aea7841n4906d5348b0c16bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <622918ba0611241004u56d673c1rfa393a10c475609a@mail.gmail.com> <6d731d6e0612041356r5aea7841n4906d5348b0c16bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200612201132.43581.frederik@questier.com> Op Monday 4 December 2006 22:56, schreef Mark Van den Borre: > 2006/11/24, Michel Berghs : > > Question: does playing songs fall under the CC-license, is it a > > form of distribution, or is it an apart form that falls under > > Sabam restrictions? If an artist is a member of Sabam, but > > publishes a song under the CC-license, can I play this song > > without paying Sabam? If not, what's the use of this license, > > that tells that you can distribute this song for free (in the > > presumption that playing is distributing)? > > In other words: do I have to pay Sabam? > > Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer AT ALL. > It is not possible for a Sabam member to release a work under a > Creative Commons license. I am not sure what the consequences would > be. The work would probably be undistributable because of licensing > conflicts. > > My common sense suggests me it would be the artist who would be > screwed. He has given you a right that he doesn't possess. So go, > SABAM, sue your members! > > Mark See http://creativecommons.org/about/think "Things to think about before you apply a Creative Commons license to your work" Question 5: "Are you a member of a collecting society? If so, does it allow you to CC-license your works?" If not already done, talking with SABAM should be one of the major upcoming tasks for the Belgian CC project group, IMHO. -- Frederik Questier http://questier.com From fquestie at vub.ac.be Wed Dec 20 05:26:32 2006 From: fquestie at vub.ac.be (Frederik Questier) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:26:32 +0100 Subject: [Cc-be] CC voor platenlabel? In-Reply-To: <19753C8926CAF74C9F82CA58DDA68DB904E65D8B@PROD31.prod.telenet.be> References: <19753C8926CAF74C9F82CA58DDA68DB904E65D8B@PROD31.prod.telenet.be> Message-ID: <200612201126.33030.fquestie@vub.ac.be> Op Wednesday 13 December 2006 08:18, schreef Vermeulen Benny: > Hallo > > Ik run een underground platenlabel maar wil mijn artiesten toch wat > (laten) beschermen. Ik zal hun werk echter wel verkopen, kan CC dan > handig zijn? En in welke vorm? Ik (of de artiesten) zullen er geen > probleem van maken dat het werk gekopieerd mag worden. Maar > verkopen zou enkel mogen door mij de winkels die van mij de cd's > toekrijgen. Ik ben geen jurist, maar... ik denk dat een handige constructie mbv CC de volgende is: De artiesten geven jou een CC Attribution-No Derivative licentie op hun werk. Daarmee mag jij dus commercie bedrijven alsook de werken onder een andere licentie verspreiden. Dan verspreid/verkoop jij de muziek onder een CC Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike licentie. Uw klanten kunnen de muziek dan weer verspreiden onder die laatste licentie, maar niemand zal dan commercie kunnen bedrijven met die muziek zonder toestemming van jou of de artiesten. -- Frederik Questier http://questier.com From michel.berghs at gmail.com Wed Dec 20 17:54:12 2006 From: michel.berghs at gmail.com (Michel Berghs) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 23:54:12 +0100 Subject: [Cc-be] CC voor platenlabel? In-Reply-To: <200612201126.33030.fquestie@vub.ac.be> References: <19753C8926CAF74C9F82CA58DDA68DB904E65D8B@PROD31.prod.telenet.be> <200612201126.33030.fquestie@vub.ac.be> Message-ID: <622918ba0612201454p6177a1c8n82973b77ac6ca544@mail.gmail.com> en voor zover ik het kan volgen, zijn de muzikanten best niet aangesloten bij Sabam, want die gaat moeilijk doen als die muziek ergens op de artiesten hun website staat ... Waarom eigenlijk geen netlabel beginnen? CD's zijn gedoemd om te verdwijnen vanaf het moment dat iedereen een mp3-speler heeft, en je zit met een pak minder onkosten. Volgens bepaalde netlabels kan je er zelfs geld mee verdienen (zie bvb. www.thinner.cc en www.marcoraaphorst.nl en, ja sorry voor de onbescheidenheid, www.netlabelism.net/links/literature). Michel Op 20-12-06 heeft Frederik Questier het volgende geschreven: > Op Wednesday 13 December 2006 08:18, schreef Vermeulen Benny: > > Hallo > > > > Ik run een underground platenlabel maar wil mijn artiesten toch wat > > (laten) beschermen. Ik zal hun werk echter wel verkopen, kan CC dan > > handig zijn? En in welke vorm? Ik (of de artiesten) zullen er geen > > probleem van maken dat het werk gekopieerd mag worden. Maar > > verkopen zou enkel mogen door mij de winkels die van mij de cd's > > toekrijgen. > > Ik ben geen jurist, maar... > ik denk dat een handige constructie mbv CC de volgende is: > > De artiesten geven jou een CC Attribution-No Derivative licentie op > hun werk. Daarmee mag jij dus commercie bedrijven alsook de werken > onder een andere licentie verspreiden. > > Dan verspreid/verkoop jij de muziek onder een CC > Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike licentie. > > Uw klanten kunnen de muziek dan weer verspreiden onder die laatste > licentie, maar niemand zal dan commercie kunnen bedrijven met die > muziek zonder toestemming van jou of de artiesten. > > -- > Frederik Questier > http://questier.com > _______________________________________________ > Cc-be mailing list > Cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-be > -- Jedermann sein eigner Fussball ! www.netlabelism.net www.radioscorpio.com/netwaves www.archive.org/details/netwaves +32 484 61 80 87