From marcel at bemol.be Sun Apr 24 10:31:18 2005 From: marcel at bemol.be (BeMol!- Marcel Vander Mierde) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:31:18 +0200 Subject: [Cc-be] New to this list Message-ID: <40331994812.20050424163118@bemol.be> Hi folks, I'm new to this list, so if I should violate to any of the common practices, please let me know it. First a little introduction: My name is Marcel (Vander Mierde) and I am a music lover. But I do have my problems with the businessmodel of the phonographic industry. I have been chairman of TIK vzw (formerly known as 'Pandora user Base') and now acting more active on the plan of legal downloading. As a still active member of TIK-vzw, I am one of the people behind the online petition on geenpctaks.be against the new belgian law on copyright (due to the EU-directive) because I believed (and still do) that this new law gives more power to the phonographic industry to fight against free music. In this behalf, I started (with help from TIK vzw and ISOC Belgium) a new initiative to promote Belgian Music online. So now I am looking for people (artists, lawyers, webbuilders, databasedevelopers, other music lovers, ...) who could help me on this project. Everyone who would like to help, or knowing someone who might help me working this out, can contact me on the coordinates in my signature. BTW: on tuesday I will be on television (ombudsman at ??n) debating about the initiative http://www.geenpctaks.be/ -- met vriendelijke groetjes, Marcel Vander Mierde BeMol! - Belgian Music online! http://www.bemol.be/ contact mail: marcel at bemol.be mobile: 0484 17 85 91 From marcel at bemol.be Sun Apr 24 13:04:35 2005 From: marcel at bemol.be (BeMol!- Marcel Vander Mierde) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:04:35 +0200 Subject: [Cc-be] Auvibel tax and SABAM-affiliated artists Message-ID: <159341252859.20050424190435@bemol.be> Hello folks, in order to prepare myself as thouroughly as possible for this debate on tuesday, I would like to know if that what some friends-musicians have told me is correct. They are SABAM-affiliated (I am trying to persuade them to pass to the CC-license) but have never seen a penny (cent) from SABAM. Because this auvibel-tax has payed to SABAM in 2002 : 1.5 million Euro in 2003 : 2 million Euro and (once this tax will be agreed on computers) we expect an increase to (according the adopted percentage) about 20 to 40 million Euro a year, we would like to know if there are any other artists who have never seen a penny from SABAM. We could use this argument in the debate in favor of the CC-licensed artists. -- greetings, Marcel Vander Mierde BeMol! - Belgian Music online! http://www.bemol.be/ contact mail: marcel at bemol.be mobile: 0494 17 85 91 From ake at kamer.cdenv.be Tue Apr 26 04:11:02 2005 From: ake at kamer.cdenv.be (Ann Kermans) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:11:02 +0200 Subject: [Cc-be] Re: Auvibel tax and SABAM-affiliated artists Message-ID: <00cc01c54a37$7d742eb0$5a15a8c0@kamer.cdenv.be> Hello Marcel, not that I'm such a big supporter of SABAM.. But a band has to do something to get the money. A metalband that I used to do some managing for filled in the SABAM-papers nicely everytime they played.. It's simple, you only have to fill in which songs were played and at the end of the year.. Ping! Money! They got about 1200 euros yearly if I remember correctly.. A lot of bands think the money just automatically comes to them.. SABAM has to know how many times the music is performed or played in order to get the right amount of money to the artists.. About SABAM itself.. To my opinion things go wrong because of the decentralisation of the organisation.. Local offices each have their own ways of thinking and they mix up dossiers the whole time.. Greetz, Ann Kermans -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-be/attachments/20050426/8b93f543/attachment.html From wim.schreurs at vub.ac.be Tue Apr 26 13:13:07 2005 From: wim.schreurs at vub.ac.be (wim schreurs) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:13:07 +0200 Subject: [Cc-be] RE: Cc-be Digest, Vol 6, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <20050426160029.A7321487C2@metalab.unc.edu> Message-ID: <000501c54a83$38157a30$cf42b886@vub.ac.be> what is the cost percentage - the amount they deduct from the collections- of Sabam? how can they guarantuee a good repartition? why is their no good control on the playlist that people give (mostly a print-out of the studio brussels top 20) why do they not allow non-exclusive agreements with their authors-composers - like in the US? Wim Schreurs -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cc-be-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:cc-be-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]Namens cc-be-request at lists.ibiblio.org Verzonden: dinsdag 26 april 2005 18:00 Aan: cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org Onderwerp: Cc-be Digest, Vol 6, Issue 3 Send Cc-be mailing list submissions to cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-be or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cc-be-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at cc-be-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Cc-be digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Auvibel tax and SABAM-affiliated artists (Ann Kermans) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:11:02 +0200 From: "Ann Kermans" Subject: [Cc-be] Re: Auvibel tax and SABAM-affiliated artists To: Message-ID: <00cc01c54a37$7d742eb0$5a15a8c0 at kamer.cdenv.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello Marcel, not that I'm such a big supporter of SABAM.. But a band has to do something to get the money. A metalband that I used to do some managing for filled in the SABAM-papers nicely everytime they played.. It's simple, you only have to fill in which songs were played and at the end of the year.. Ping! Money! They got about 1200 euros yearly if I remember correctly.. A lot of bands think the money just automatically comes to them.. SABAM has to know how many times the music is performed or played in order to get the right amount of money to the artists.. About SABAM itself.. To my opinion things go wrong because of the decentralisation of the organisation.. Local offices each have their own ways of thinking and they mix up dossiers the whole time.. Greetz, Ann Kermans -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-be/attachments/20050426/8b93f543/attac hment-0001.htm ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Cc-be mailing list Cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-be End of Cc-be Digest, Vol 6, Issue 3 *********************************** From marcel at bemol.be Wed Apr 27 15:26:18 2005 From: marcel at bemol.be (BeMol!- Marcel Vander Mierde) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:26:18 +0200 Subject: [Cc-be] Auvibel tax and SABAM-affiliated artists In-Reply-To: <159341252859.20050424190435@bemol.be> References: <159341252859.20050424190435@bemol.be> Message-ID: <196609202015.20050427212618@bemol.be> Op Sunday, April 24, 2005, 7:04:35 PM, BeMol! wrote: > Hello folks, > in order to prepare myself as thouroughly as possible for this debate > on tuesday, I would like to know if that what some friends-musicians > have told me is correct. Regrettably the subject of the debate has been changed in the last minute. VRT-television had to pass another message: "illegal downloading is hurting artists" (I would have preferred the word 'commercial' before the word artists, but money was dictating) The auvibel-tax will be brought soon as an opinion on our website. -- greetings, Marcel Vander Mierde BeMol! - Belgian Music online! Contact mail: marcel at bemol.be mobile: 0494 17 85 91 From wim.schreurs at vub.ac.be Thu Apr 28 14:18:55 2005 From: wim.schreurs at vub.ac.be (wim schreurs) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:18:55 +0200 Subject: [Cc-be] RE: Cc-be Digest, Vol 6, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <20050428160025.14B0A484A7@metalab.unc.edu> Message-ID: <000201c54c1e$bda2a550$cf42b886@vub.ac.be> As far as i know, illegal dowloading does not exist yet. It is the uploading (communication to the public) which is illegal. If anyone thinks this is wrong, please let me know. Wim Schreurs -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cc-be-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:cc-be-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]Namens cc-be-request at lists.ibiblio.org Verzonden: donderdag 28 april 2005 18:00 Aan: cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org Onderwerp: Cc-be Digest, Vol 6, Issue 5 Send Cc-be mailing list submissions to cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-be or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cc-be-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at cc-be-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Cc-be digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Auvibel tax and SABAM-affiliated artists (BeMol!- Marcel Vander Mierde) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:26:18 +0200 From: BeMol!- Marcel Vander Mierde Subject: Re: [Cc-be] Auvibel tax and SABAM-affiliated artists To: cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org Message-ID: <196609202015.20050427212618 at bemol.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Op Sunday, April 24, 2005, 7:04:35 PM, BeMol! wrote: > Hello folks, > in order to prepare myself as thouroughly as possible for this debate > on tuesday, I would like to know if that what some friends-musicians > have told me is correct. Regrettably the subject of the debate has been changed in the last minute. VRT-television had to pass another message: "illegal downloading is hurting artists" (I would have preferred the word 'commercial' before the word artists, but money was dictating) The auvibel-tax will be brought soon as an opinion on our website. -- greetings, Marcel Vander Mierde BeMol! - Belgian Music online! Contact mail: marcel at bemol.be mobile: 0494 17 85 91 ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Cc-be mailing list Cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-be End of Cc-be Digest, Vol 6, Issue 5 *********************************** From copy.cult at constantvzw.com Fri Apr 29 04:02:52 2005 From: copy.cult at constantvzw.com (nicolas maleve) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:02:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Cc-be] RE: Cc-be Digest, Vol 6, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <000201c54c1e$bda2a550$cf42b886@vub.ac.be> References: <20050428160025.14B0A484A7@metalab.unc.edu> <000201c54c1e$bda2a550$cf42b886@vub.ac.be> Message-ID: <1265.212.68.194.4.1114761772.squirrel@www.serve.com> As for Belgium, I only know cases where uploaders have been brought to court. But in France, the cases against downloaders have already started last winter. And the accusation was based on the fact that a file downloaded from an illegal source was a counterfeit(contrefa?on?). However in the end, it looks like the downloader has been charged for illegal upload, as in the Peer-to-peer system he was using, he couldn't only download but was forced to give access to his download as well. See: http://news.tf1.fr/news/multimedia/2004/0,,3191463,00.html [...]l'avocate repr?sentant la SACEM expliquera ainsi que "la r?ciprocit? et le partage sont inh?rents au peer-to-peer, et m?me rendus obligatoires sur Direct Connect". Alain ayant t?l?charg? pendant un an, il est impossible qu'il n'ait pas ?t? banni des serveurs de Direct Connect aux r?gles draconiennes. Mais surtout, avance ensuite Me Ravinetti, avocat de la SCPP, "le t?l?chargement en lui-m?me, ? partir du moment o? la source est illicite, est contrefa?on" : m?me s'il n'a pas mis ? disposition, Alain a contrefait. Les avocats r?clameront donc des dommages et int?r?ts importants. Certes, expliquent-ils, "on ne peut pas savoir combien de fois chaque morceau t?l?charg? par Alexis a ensuite ?t? repris". Mais ils disposent d?sormais d'un bar?me : le prix des morceaux de musique sur les sites de t?l?chargement l?gal dont il n'ont cess? de faire la publicit?. Un euro par titre donc : au final, elles r?clament 28.366 euros. http://www.ratiatum.com/p2p.php?article=1914 Le premier de la cinquantaine de proc?s annonc?s suites aux plaintes d?pos?es par le SNEP et la SCPP avait lieu hier mercredi ? Pontoise, dans la r?gion parisienne. Alexis, un enseignant de 28 ans, comparaissait devant le tribunal correctionnel pour avoir partag? sur Internet l'?quivalent de 614 albums en MP3. Selon l'article L.335-4 du code de la propri?t? intellectuelle, mettre des chansons prot?g?es par le droit d'auteur sans autorisation des producteurs est un d?lit passible de 3 ans d'emprisonnement et de 300.000 amende. Finalement le procureur n'aura requis que 1500 euros, et la publication du jugement dans deux quotidiens nationaux. ++---- wim schreurs said ----++ > As far as i know, illegal dowloading does not exist yet. It is the > uploading > (communication to the public) which is illegal. > If anyone thinks this is wrong, please let me know. > > Wim Schreurs > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cc-be-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:cc-be-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]Namens > cc-be-request at lists.ibiblio.org > Verzonden: donderdag 28 april 2005 18:00 > Aan: cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org > Onderwerp: Cc-be Digest, Vol 6, Issue 5 > > > Send Cc-be mailing list submissions to > cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-be > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cc-be-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cc-be-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Cc-be digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Auvibel tax and SABAM-affiliated artists > (BeMol!- Marcel Vander Mierde) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:26:18 +0200 > From: BeMol!- Marcel Vander Mierde > Subject: Re: [Cc-be] Auvibel tax and SABAM-affiliated artists > To: cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <196609202015.20050427212618 at bemol.be> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Op Sunday, April 24, 2005, 7:04:35 PM, BeMol! wrote: > >> Hello folks, >> in order to prepare myself as thouroughly as possible for this debate >> on tuesday, I would like to know if that what some friends-musicians >> have told me is correct. > > Regrettably the subject of the debate has been changed in the last > minute. > > VRT-television had to pass another message: > "illegal downloading is hurting artists" > (I would have preferred the word 'commercial' before the word artists, > but money was dictating) > > The auvibel-tax will be brought soon as an opinion on our website. > > -- > greetings, > Marcel Vander Mierde > > BeMol! - Belgian Music online! > > > Contact > mail: marcel at bemol.be > mobile: 0494 17 85 91 > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Cc-be mailing list > Cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-be > > > End of Cc-be Digest, Vol 6, Issue 5 > *********************************** > > _______________________________________________ > Cc-be mailing list > Cc-be at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-be > * * * * * * * * * C O N S T A N T V Z W From marcel at bemol.be Fri Apr 29 14:00:44 2005 From: marcel at bemol.be (BeMol!- Marcel Vander Mierde) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:00:44 +0200 Subject: [Cc-be] RE: Cc-be Digest, Vol 6, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <000201c54c1e$bda2a550$cf42b886@vub.ac.be> References: <000201c54c1e$bda2a550$cf42b886@vub.ac.be> Message-ID: <45777051828.20050429200044@bemol.be> Op Thursday, April 28, 2005, 8:18:55 PM, BeMol! wrote: > As far as i know, illegal dowloading does not exist yet. It is the uploading > (communication to the public) which is illegal. > If anyone thinks this is wrong, please let me know. Wim, laws are quite complicated. In the matter of downloading one has not only the laws on copyright and intellectual property, but also the law(s) on computercrime and 'normal laws' (in Dutch: strafrecht - I don't know the correct terms in English). So, I would not be to sure of myself: somewhere out there is a law forbidding the downloading of illegal uploaded songs. I am acting completely different: If I have a problem with the ethics of chiquita, I don't steal chiquita-banana's, I buy fair trade banana's. Because by stealing chiquita's I confirm that I want their products. The day artists notice that their songs are not even stolen, they should start asking some questions. -- greetings, Marcel Vander Mierde BeMol! - Belgian Music online! Contact mail: marcel at bemol.be mobile: 0494 17 85 91 From wouter.vanden.hove at telenet.be Fri Apr 29 09:18:28 2005 From: wouter.vanden.hove at telenet.be (Wouter Vanden hove) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:18:28 +0200 Subject: [Cc-be] Counterfeit for private purpose In-Reply-To: <1265.212.68.194.4.1114761772.squirrel@www.serve.com> References: <20050428160025.14B0A484A7@metalab.unc.edu> <000201c54c1e$bda2a550$cf42b886@vub.ac.be> <1265.212.68.194.4.1114761772.squirrel@www.serve.com> Message-ID: <42723424.6010407@telenet.be> nicolas maleve wrote: > As for Belgium, I only know cases where uploaders have been brought to > court. But in France, the cases against downloaders have already started > last winter. And the accusation was based on the fact that a file > downloaded from an illegal source was a counterfeit(contrefa?on?). Interesting, this brings up a new question, since the home-user creates the counterfeit himself for his own private purpose. Is one allowed to counterfeit a product, to create a look-alike, for his own personal purposes (no distribution, no commercialism)? For example create a look-alike Armani suite and to wear it yourself? Or make a food-product at home that tastes exactly as a product of a certain brand. wouter opencursus.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wouter.vanden.hove.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 294 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-be/attachments/20050429/93e22787/attachment.vcf