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  • From: Keith Morris <earthsurfing@yahoo.com>
  • To: kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com>, permaculture <permaculture@openpermaculture.org>, "permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, NE PC Listserv <northeasternpermaculture@lists.riseup.net>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] [northeasternpermaculture] "What Permaculture Isn't" is bad for permaculture
  • Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 07:55:27 -0700 (PDT)

"Like"!

I think we need a better forum for these conversations that is more easily
seen by people beyond this email list...

Is it the 'Northeastern Permaculture Social Network'?  
(http://northeastpc.ning.com

alot of the permacorps and 'organizers retreat' notes have been housed
there...

I'm sorry that I haven't been able to contribute to the conversation much, as
I'm really trying to minimize my time on the computer this time of year, but
its easy enough to read it all on my phone...

I'm been verbally recording some thoughts and hope to be able to sit down and
type them out soon...

Thanks, all- these are the types of conversations I started this list for...

Best,
Keith 
 

________________________________
Keith Morris 
Prospect Rock Permaculture 
Design and Education for Ecological Culture
[www.ProspectRock.org]
P.O. Box 426  
Jeffersonville, VT 05464 
Keith@ProspectRock.org
(802) 734-1129

"If we do not do the impossible, we shall be faced with the unthinkable."
Murray Bookchin (1921-2006) 



________________________________
From: kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@openpermaculture.org>;
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org; NE PC Listserv
<northeasternpermaculture@lists.riseup.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [northeasternpermaculture] "What Permaculture Isn't" is bad for
permaculture






Toby's piece is brilliant, from his framing, and so is Rafter's.    and as
they both point out, as well as dave and all, it is all about the framing.  
hell, i agree with everyone after reading.

I don't want to waste folks time with something redundant, but here it is
anyway:, redundancy and all

In a lot of "progressive" circles these days we see a lot people recognizing
the depth of the problems, and coming up with different solutions and  
framing  depending on their paradigms: the Slow Monry and Social investment
folks see it all thru a lens of investment, capital, and return while working
for this "triple bottom line" or whatever they call it..  what they do not
essentially question is Capitalism itself, so they can only get so far in
solutions.  This is a huge problem that goes beyond "enlightened" capital,
and infects everything, even most of the PC world.

Dave raises the question of how much does our own perspective shift as we try
to "infiltrate" institutions that embody, within their very "core" lets say,
degenerative principles. The privilege making/breaking world of for-profit
institutional education is one arena that Dave questions, but it is in most
of our institutions: corporations, military, political parties etc. The
corruption is deep, and seemingly intransigent.

Is it possible that people can engage with corporations, or the military, or
political parties and "shift" these institutions in some way that moves us in
the direction of "meeting human needs while increasing ecosystem health"?
Well, maybe....but i think the most practical and simple answer is  No.  The
best we can do is negotiate for little less destruction, a little less bad
behavior.  This is a simple practical observation, not a judgement (tho my
instinct also is we shouldn't negotiate with terrorists)  This is esentially
the story of the Liberal movement which is probably as doomed as Capitalism
itself.

What is admirable, and clarifying i think for most  (or some anyway) of the
Left movements in the world is that they attempt to undertake to face our
problems, and come up with solutions, but aren't afraid to get all "negative"
They aren't afraid to say "no means no" They aren't afraid of conflict as
they see quite clearly that we are already in a global conflict. The war has
been raging for some time now, and is only getting "hotter"

PC is carrying alot of "liberal" tendencies because it has a lot of
privileged folks involved in it.   This is what it is and isn't therefore a
problem necessarily, however it is worth acknowledging.  Privilege has some
ingrained habits and tendencies to want to preserve privilege. Poverty
however has no such barriers, so poor and oppressed people are always at the
core of revolutionary tendencies.

In all of our work we simply need to be mindful of the question : are we
really moving things in a regenerative direction, or are we only aspiring to
slow the destruction? are we negotiating for a few scraps of privilege with
illegitimate slave holding institutions, or are we quite rightly
deligitimizing and  effectively countering their power and violent authority?

I think both rafter and toby are clearly asking these deeper questions in
their work  so aren't really that far apart.  good writers too.

xo
kevin



On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:31 PM, rafter sass ferguson
<liberationecology@gmail.com> wrote:

The Convenience and Poverty of Simple Definitions
>- responding to Toby
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>
>Rafter Sass Ferguson, MS
>PhD Candidate | Crop Sciences Department
>University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign
>liberationecology.org
>518 567 7407
>From toby@patternliteracy.com Thu Jun 20 13:33:38 2013
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] [northeasternpermaculture] "What Permaculture
Isn't" is bad for permaculture
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Real quick: (I'm not normally on the NE PC list, but this got cc'd to me)

I don't think that teaching permaculture in "corrupt" institutions like
corporations, for-profit mainstream schools, and the armed forces will change
those institutions. Late-succession institutions like those evolve to
preserve the institution above all else. But teaching within them can reach
the individuals working in them, and persuade those people to leave them or
stop giving power to them. I've seen it, over and over. Those institutions
are made of people who serve them; turn the people, and not only do the
institutions become less powerful and damaging, but the people in them learn
there is an alternative to them. Permaculture is good at that.

Kevin, thanks for the praise!

(I guess a paragraph is "real quick" for me!)

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:55 AM, Keith Morris wrote:

> "Like"!
>
> I think we need a better forum for these conversations that is more easily
> seen by people beyond this email list...
>
> Is it the 'Northeastern Permaculture Social Network'?
> (http://northeastpc.ning.com)
>
> alot of the permacorps and 'organizers retreat' notes have been housed
> there...
>
> I'm sorry that I haven't been able to contribute to the conversation much,
> as I'm really trying to minimize my time on the computer this time of year,
> but its easy enough to read it all on my phone...
>
> I'm been verbally recording some thoughts and hope to be able to sit down
> and type them out soon...
>
> Thanks, all- these are the types of conversations I started this list for...
>
> Best,
> Keith
>
>
> ________________________________
> Keith Morris
> Prospect Rock Permaculture
> Design and Education for Ecological Culture
> [www.ProspectRock.org]
> P.O. Box 426
> Jeffersonville, VT 05464
> Keith@ProspectRock.org
> (802) 734-1129
>
> "If we do not do the impossible, we shall be faced with the unthinkable."
> Murray Bookchin (1921-2006)
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@openpermaculture.org>;
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org; NE PC Listserv
> <northeasternpermaculture@lists.riseup.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [northeasternpermaculture] "What Permaculture Isn't" is bad
> for permaculture
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Toby's piece is brilliant, from his framing, and so is Rafter's. and as
> they both point out, as well as dave and all, it is all about the framing.
> hell, i agree with everyone after reading.
>
> I don't want to waste folks time with something redundant, but here it is
> anyway:, redundancy and all
>
> In a lot of "progressive" circles these days we see a lot people
> recognizing the depth of the problems, and coming up with different
> solutions and framing depending on their paradigms: the Slow Monry and
> Social investment folks see it all thru a lens of investment, capital, and
> return while working for this "triple bottom line" or whatever they call
> it.. what they do not essentially question is Capitalism itself, so they
> can only get so far in solutions. This is a huge problem that goes beyond
> "enlightened" capital, and infects everything, even most of the PC world.
>
> Dave raises the question of how much does our own perspective shift as we
> try to "infiltrate" institutions that embody, within their very "core" lets
> say, degenerative principles. The privilege making/breaking world of
> for-profit institutional education is one arena that Dave questions, but it
> is in most of our institutions: corporations, military, political parties
> etc. The corruption is deep, and seemingly intransigent.
>
> Is it possible that people can engage with corporations, or the military,
> or political parties and "shift" these institutions in some way that moves
> us in the direction of "meeting human needs while increasing ecosystem
> health"? Well, maybe....but i think the most practical and simple answer is
> No. The best we can do is negotiate for little less destruction, a little
> less bad behavior. This is a simple practical observation, not a judgement
> (tho my instinct also is we shouldn't negotiate with terrorists) This is
> esentially the story of the Liberal movement which is probably as doomed as
> Capitalism itself.
>
> What is admirable, and clarifying i think for most (or some anyway) of the
> Left movements in the world is that they attempt to undertake to face our
> problems, and come up with solutions, but aren't afraid to get all
> "negative" They aren't afraid to say "no means no" They aren't afraid of
> conflict as they see quite clearly that we are already in a global
> conflict. The war has been raging for some time now, and is only getting
> "hotter"
>
> PC is carrying alot of "liberal" tendencies because it has a lot of
> privileged folks involved in it. This is what it is and isn't therefore a
> problem necessarily, however it is worth acknowledging. Privilege has some
> ingrained habits and tendencies to want to preserve privilege. Poverty
> however has no such barriers, so poor and oppressed people are always at
> the core of revolutionary tendencies.
>
> In all of our work we simply need to be mindful of the question : are we
> really moving things in a regenerative direction, or are we only aspiring
> to slow the destruction? are we negotiating for a few scraps of privilege
> with illegitimate slave holding institutions, or are we quite rightly
> deligitimizing and effectively countering their power and violent
> authority?
>
> I think both rafter and toby are clearly asking these deeper questions in
> their work so aren't really that far apart. good writers too.
>
> xo
> kevin
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:31 PM, rafter sass ferguson
> <liberationecology@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The Convenience and Poverty of Simple Definitions
>> - responding to Toby
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Rafter Sass Ferguson, MS
>> PhD Candidate | Crop Sciences Department
>> University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign
>> liberationecology.org
>> 518 567 7407
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