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  • From: deston denniston <cobbuilder@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this + 'GOT BALLS?'
  • Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 07:53:42 -0800 (PST)

Its nice to see so many people coming aware of the need to get a national
conversation and standard set in regards to certification. Its also nice to
see that the six years Ive been watching Vlad and calling him a menace is
finally being seen by others (there have been a few, but this is the surge of
awareness I had hopped to see six years ago, when I had some verbal sparring
right here on ibiblio with him, prior to his exorcism... Yay! a national
standards conversation and some headway made to a national certifying body!
Our permaculture mind is often moribund- many people fail in permaculture
'businesses' not because permaculture is flawed, but because they think it
solves all the problems. However, it doesn't directly model the necessary
actions for business success- that's not its job. It also says use multiple
elements for each function. So it pays to have other forms and models of life
assessment and arrangement to work with that are complimentary
to ones cash resliency and stability. With that, I entreat you to check out
our kickstarter project. VETS_CAFE is producing Illuminated text and site
designs for 2.5 acre veteran owned organic permaculture farm via a PDC. Your
support gets you seedballs, which we have the capacity to produce at a few
hundred pounds a day, and capacity increases every time we tinker with it...
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/694901181/vets-cafe-a-permaculture-design-project/posts...
GOT BALLS?

Peace,



Deston Denniston, M.S., C.P.I.

Steward, Abundance Permaculture Consulting

www.abundancepermaculture.com

(360) 673-2124

--- On Wed, 2/27/13, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
<permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
<permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 121, Issue 34
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Wednesday, February 27, 2013, 7:06 AM

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Today's Topics:

   1. Ch4 Kevin McClouds Man Made Home 3of4 - YouTube (Lawrence London)
   2. Re: Who is this? (Jason Gerhardt)
   3. Re: Who is this? (Toby Hemenway)
   4. Re: Who is this? (Lawrence London)
   5. Re: Who is this? (loren luyendyk)
   6. Re: Who is this? (spiralridgepermaculture@gmail.com)
   7. Re: Who is this? (Ben Martin Horst)
   8. Re: Who is this? (Michael Pilarski)
   9. Re: Who is this? (Chris Carnevale)
  10. Re: Who is this? (Lawrence London)
  11. Re: Who is this? (ChildrensPeaceGuild)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 23:21:20 -0500
From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Ch4 Kevin McClouds Man Made Home 3of4 -
    YouTube
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
    <CA+j2Q+AN93wMZgpfKgWKU7cQVVUY7Ah6MxSH4hav9XHDLc06ng@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

beautiful video...

Ch4 Kevin McClouds Man Made Home 3of4 - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jvJpDkcD4d0


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:44:02 -0700
From: Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
    <CADEhrOm1rp5UCP_+sUeCrQa3CcX=R6KgQ_utO4pJ00Qao5gB2A@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Who is Vladislav's teacher? He or she might want to consider retracting his
certificate.

Don't we already have standards? I feel like all that is left to do is
enforce them. We had a guy here on the Front Range start a "permaculture
institute" who had never taken a PDC. With continuous pressure from myself
and the help of Scott Pittman, he changed his groups name. I understand
Vlad is a different breed however.

Having visions of ants carrying sick members from the colony, we ignore
ecological hierarchy to our own peril perhaps.

In the end, Vlad will do what Vlad will do. And those of us really in it
will keep on going and making good things happen. Anybody who signs up for
one of Vlad's courses or programs is ignoring some major warning signs.
That's on them.

"Listen, heres the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in the first half
hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker".
-Rounders

--
Jason Gerhardt
Designer and Educator


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:59:03 -0800
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <464BA9DF-8A26-4D68-86FC-8DE03AD5EA51@patternliteracy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

There is already a certifying body in the US. In 1997 Bill Mollison and Scott
Pittman founded the Permaculture Institute USA, a 501c3 non-profit based in
New Mexico. Scott is director. I am one of the field directors, and I use
their certificates. As a field director I also mentor people through the
diploma process. PI-USA has given out a good number of diplomas and many
hundreds of certificates. Scott doesn't make too much noise about it, but
they've been quietly doing this work for 15 years. Their main page for
diplomas and professional practice is at

http://www.permaculture.org/nm/index.php/site/professional_practise_pages

Apparently they haven't been making enough noise if no one knows about them.
Scott wouldn't mind some help.

PINA was re-started by Jude Hobbs. it was long ago founded by Sego Jackson,
and went dormant about 20 years ago.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Feb 26, 2013, at 7:31 PM, spiralridgepermaculture@gmail.com wrote:

> PINA is Permaculture Institute of North America.  It is suppose to be up
> and running soon.  Still waiting.  I agree with Darrell that we need not
> enforce standards but we do need them.
>
> Connected by Motorola
>
> venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/26/2013 9:09 PM, spiralridgepermaculture@gmail.com wrote:
>>> This is crazy.  I pray that PINA can get up and running soon.  I do not
>>> like this at all.
>>
>> What is PINA?
>>
>> To make matters worse Larry Korn, editor of a Fukuoka book has created
>> the beginnings of an online permaculture course with videos in
>> collaboration with that regenerawhatsis scambabble group trying to
>> use a kickstarter or indiegogo to fund an online permaculture course.
>> The http://www.indiegogo.com/OpenPermaculture fundraiser has been taken
>> offline. I guess they took the money and ran.
>>
>> After all this I can't imagine anyone complaining about enforcing
>> standards for permaculture, teaching, consultng or otherwise using it to
>> earn a livelihood.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> _______________________________________________
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> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 00:14:17 -0500
From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
    <CA+j2Q+CnpCnoTrDOF-4VBYaheBbxzxKZ7qirAq3RFk7C8os4Sg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:44 PM, Jason Gerhardt
<jasongerhardt@gmail.com>wrote:

> Who is Vladislav's teacher? He or she might want to consider retracting his
> certificate.
>
> Geoff Lawton & PRI. as far as I know

who must endorse his method of "doing business"

since the self-appointed royalty of the world of permaculture seem to take
issue with Scott & PI
and many others we know, and any standards regulatory infrastructure they
may favor, then I guess its anything goes for perma-entrepreneurism and get
rich quick off the backs of those who started and nurtured the permaculture
movement over the decades, many of whom may have yet to earn a living wage
from their efforts teaching and promoting PC

the way to deal with the regenerawhatsis scambabbler is to spread he word
about his sleazy offerings and methods of doing business and dealing with
customer-suckers
unfortunately, part of his permaculture "education" was becoming well
versed in the get rich quick scheme and sue all those who get in the way;
this is exactly what has unfolded to date,
although unsuccessful, wittness his song and dance, identity morphing,
whining begathons, phony projects.


> Don't we already have standards? I feel like all that is left to do is
> enforce them. We had a guy here on the Front Range start a "permaculture
>

Get on with it.

institute" who had never taken a PDC. With continuous pressure from myself
> and the help of Scott Pittman, he changed his groups name. I understand
> Vlad is a different breed however.
>
> Having visions of ants carrying sick members from the colony, we ignore
> ecological hierarchy to our own peril perhaps.
>
> In the end, Vlad will do what Vlad will do. And those of us really in it
> will keep on going and making good things happen. Anybody who signs up for
> one of Vlad's courses or programs is ignoring some major warning signs.
> That's on them.
>
> "Listen, heres the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in the first half
> hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker".
> -Rounders
>
> --
> Jason Gerhardt
> Designer and Educator
>


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 06:50:54 +0000
From: loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?
To: Permaculture Listserve <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BLU176-W26E3626FF096ECEF3F860BA8FD0@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


With all due respect, PI-USA has left a void, a niche, which has been filled
by this guy whoever whatever American Permaculture Association.  As Toby
hinted, PI-USA hasn't been too vocal about their role, and now other people
are stepping up to fill the niche.

Is there a list of teachers and courses accredited by PI-USA?  Is PI-USA
involved with PINA?  Is there a plan for a national gathering to discuss
this?  After 15 years I think it about time...

And sorry, if you haven't been earning a living wage doing permaculture, and
you've been doing it over 10 years then perhaps its time to re-evaluate the
sustainability of your business.

Loren Luyendyk
805-452-8249
Permaculture Design and Education
ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
www.sborganics.com
www.globalpermaculture.com
www.surferswithoutborders.com


> From: lfljvenaura@gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 00:14:17 -0500
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?
>
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:44 PM, Jason Gerhardt
> <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Who is Vladislav's teacher? He or she might want to consider retracting
> > his
> > certificate.
> >
> > Geoff Lawton & PRI. as far as I know
>
> who must endorse his method of "doing business"
>
> since the self-appointed royalty of the world of permaculture seem to take
> issue with Scott & PI
> and many others we know, and any standards regulatory infrastructure they
> may favor, then I guess its anything goes for perma-entrepreneurism and get
> rich quick off the backs of those who started and nurtured the permaculture
> movement over the decades, many of whom may have yet to earn a living wage
> from their efforts teaching and promoting PC
>
> the way to deal with the regenerawhatsis scambabbler is to spread he word
> about his sleazy offerings and methods of doing business and dealing with
> customer-suckers
> unfortunately, part of his permaculture "education" was becoming well
> versed in the get rich quick scheme and sue all those who get in the way;
> this is exactly what has unfolded to date,
> although unsuccessful, wittness his song and dance, identity morphing,
> whining begathons, phony projects.
>
>
> > Don't we already have standards? I feel like all that is left to do is
> > enforce them. We had a guy here on the Front Range start a "permaculture
> >
>
> Get on with it.
>
> institute" who had never taken a PDC. With continuous pressure from myself
> > and the help of Scott Pittman, he changed his groups name. I understand
> > Vlad is a different breed however.
> >
> > Having visions of ants carrying sick members from the colony, we ignore
> > ecological hierarchy to our own peril perhaps.
> >
> > In the end, Vlad will do what Vlad will do. And those of us really in it
> > will keep on going and making good things happen. Anybody who signs up for
> > one of Vlad's courses or programs is ignoring some major warning signs.
> > That's on them.
> >
> > "Listen, heres the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in the first half
> > hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker".
> > -Rounders
> >
> > --
> > Jason Gerhardt
> > Designer and Educator
> >
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
                         

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 06:18:31 -0600
From: "spiralridgepermaculture@gmail.com"
    <spiralridgepermaculture@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <hlki4ihx5g9g0ad0b704n18k.1361967331921@email.android.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

That is interesting Toby.  After Bill closed shop I contacted Scott Pittman
more than once about sending in my paperwork to get my diploma since I
already had done the work.  No response, No reply.  Upset me to no end.  Know
I guess they have it all together?

Connected by Motorola

Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:

>There is already a certifying body in the US. In 1997 Bill Mollison and
>Scott Pittman founded the Permaculture Institute USA, a 501c3 non-profit
>based in New Mexico. Scott is director. I am one of the field directors, and
>I use their certificates. As a field director I also mentor people through
>the diploma process. PI-USA has given out a good number of diplomas and many
>hundreds of certificates. Scott doesn't make too much noise about it, but
>they've been quietly doing this work for 15 years. Their main page for
>diplomas and professional practice is at
>
>http://www.permaculture.org/nm/index.php/site/professional_practise_pages
>
>Apparently they haven't been making enough noise if no one knows about them.
>Scott wouldn't mind some help.
>
>PINA was re-started by Jude Hobbs. it was long ago founded by Sego Jackson,
>and went dormant about 20 years ago.
>
>Toby
>http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>On Feb 26, 2013, at 7:31 PM, spiralridgepermaculture@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> PINA is Permaculture Institute of North America.  It is suppose to be up
>> and running soon.  Still waiting.  I agree with Darrell that we need not
>> enforce standards but we do need them.
>>
>> Connected by Motorola
>>
>> venaurafarm <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/26/2013 9:09 PM, spiralridgepermaculture@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> This is crazy.  I pray that PINA can get up and running soon.  I do not
>>>> like this at all.
>>>
>>> What is PINA?
>>>
>>> To make matters worse Larry Korn, editor of a Fukuoka book has created
>>> the beginnings of an online permaculture course with videos in
>>> collaboration with that regenerawhatsis scambabble group trying to
>>> use a kickstarter or indiegogo to fund an online permaculture course.
>>> The http://www.indiegogo.com/OpenPermaculture fundraiser has been taken
>>> offline. I guess they took the money and ran.
>>>
>>> After all this I can't imagine anyone complaining about enforcing
>>> standards for permaculture, teaching, consultng or otherwise using it to
>>> earn a livelihood.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>> Google message archive search:
>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>> Google message archive search:
>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>Google message archive search:
>site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 06:14:18 -0800
From: Ben Martin Horst <ben.martinhorst@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
    <CABGKPO_PvgNYSj2GZ7RXL2GfK41yVAW4L4BeF7NT7KMbs2NA1w@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I filled out the contact form on the americanpermaculture.org website, and
received the following response, from Vlad. Note that I asked several
questions about the organizational structure and connection to the
permaculture community that he totally ignores, despite going on to talk
about "transparency."

Ben,

The Regenerative Leadership Institute is the founding member of the
American Permaculture Association.  We launched the organization as
a way of bringing unprecedented transparency to the movement without
creating any kind of a hierarchy.

In essence we are saying that here are the standards all of our
trainings meet and exceed.  Anyone else who runs permaculture
trainings is welcome to join us;  and by doing so they will also
be able to piggy-back off our marketing (which is quite frankly
unprecedented in the PC community)

Again, the standards are both transparent and voluntary.  There
is no requirement to say "you must join this" but rather a very
clear, very public statement as to what an APA-accredited
designer has completed.

Please reach out with any other questions.  :o)

With gratitude,

Vladislav
---
Regenerative Leadership Institute
The nation's sustainable living and permaculture design school
A+ rated by the Better Business Bureau.
1-800-376-3775 // www.permaculturedesigntraining.com
14525 SW Millikan Way, Suite 17760, Beaverton, OR 97005
Like us on Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/regenerativeleader

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing
model obsolete." -- Richard Buckminster Fuller

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is
that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness
that most frightens us."  -- M. Williamson




On 2/26/13 1:39 PM, "Ben Martin Horst" <ben.martinhorst@gmail.com> wrote:

>Ben Martin Horst has submitted the following message:
>
>Greetings. I would like to inquire as to who the American Permaculture
>Association is. Who established it? Who maintains it? Is there a board?
>What is its historical and present connection to the broader permaculture
>movement?
>
>I look forward to hearing back from you.
>
>Reply To:
>ben.martinhorst@gmail.com
>
>Sent via Quick Contact on http://www.americanpermaculture.org
>

On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Andrew Millison <amillison@gmail.com>wrote:

> FYI, Slav has now declared himself the organization who certifies
> Permaculture Teachers in the US:
>
> http://www.americanpermaculture.org/
>
> Yes, that's his website, so i've heard, although there is no indication of
> that on the site.
>
> Andrew
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Chris Watkins <
> chriswaterguy@appropedia.org
> > wrote:
>
> > I was the one who posted to Permies.com about the Open Source
> Permaculture
> > project, and I apologize. I don't think Paul has any connection.
> >
> > I did some digging around beforehand, and it didn't look like a scam,
> > but... maybe it's a case of good intentions not being enough. I'm now
> very
> > careful to only help promote projects where the project leaders have a
> > clear, visible track record.
> >
> >
> > On 12 February 2013 16:55, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 7:09 PM, Robert Waldrop <bwaldrop1952@att.net
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > You never quite know what will happen with these crowd sourced
> funding
> > > > plans.
> > > >  They could raise the money and never produce the product.
> > > >
> > > > These folks
> > > >
> > > > http://www.indiegogo.com/OpenPermaculture
> > > >
> > > > raised $16000+, but their promised book on urban permaculture has yet
> > to
> > > > appear.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Never heard of this person but did see a promotion for her work at
> > > permies.com. Maybe Paul Wheaton can comment further as to the
> legitimacy
> > > of
> > > her work.
> > >
> > > I see that you can 'buy your own tree' to be planted in the The Wolf
> > > Private Nature Reserve in Slovakia at the following site:
> > >
> > > http://www.indiegogo.com/OpenPermaculture
> > > "Who is behind this project?
> > >
> > > Sophia Novack is a documentary film student passionate about creating a
> > > more sustainable world. She is a passionate permaculture geek and
> > > environmental activist. She is the force behind Permaculture Media Blog
> > and
> > > Permaculture Directory, the largest and FREE online directory of
> > > Permaculture educational resources and course listings around the
> world.
> > >
> > > For almost two years Permaculture Media Blog and Permaculture Directory
> > > have brought together high-quality, sustainable-living and educational
> > > media for the worldwide eco-community. These projects inspire thousands
> > of
> > > people every day and have helped many people to start their own
> > > homesteading projects."
> > > <>
> > >
> > > It would be unfortunate for money to go to hyped-up nonproductive
> > projects
> > > when it could go to so many worthwhile ones needing and seeking funding
> > or
> > > thinking about pursuing that route for financial survival.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Chris Watkins
> >
> > Appropedia.org - Sharing knowledge to build rich, sustainable lives.
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Andrew Millison
> (541) 752-9118
> www.beaverstatepermaculture.com
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 06:21:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
    <1361974893.35485.YahooMailClassic@web142302.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8























?

To clarify a few
things.

?

I have seen some
comments that there are no on-line pdcs.

?

There are on-line
permaculture design courses. They have been offered for quite a few years and
they are proliferating. The first online pdcs in the US were offered by Dan
Hemenway and there are Australian ones as well.?
Marisha Auerbach and Andrew Millison, both well respected pdc teachers, have
recently started on-line pdc courses.?

?

There have been many
attempts to set pdc course standards over the years, both internationally and
in the US (including by PI-USA).? I do not have a clear picture
of the current situation. Most likely Jude Hobbs has the current best overview
of the situation as she has been working with others to reinstitute the
Permaculture Institute of North America (PINA) as a pdc certifying body with
clear standards for offering pdc certification.

?

At the moment,
basically any person can do a training and call it a permaculture design
course. They can give a certificate based solely on their own cognizance with
no organizations backing them. This has led to a free-for-all situation and
the
pdcs offered in the US vary widely in their quality, although I believe most
of
them are credible.

?

Because of this real
(or perceived) vacuum it has opened the door for Vlad to try to set himself up
(through the name American Permaculture Association) as the certifying body
for
pdcs in the US.

?

This is ludicrous
since Vlad has a very poor reputation among many permaculturists in the US. I
don?t know anyone who supports him. On the other hand, Jude Hobbs and the
people
she is working with to set pdc standards, have very good reputations.

?

It will be very
interesting to see what goes down as this story plays out.

?

As Loren says, it is
past due time for a national gathering to discuss this.

?

Michael Pilarski

Northwest
Permaculture Convergence and Inland Northwest Permaculture Guild

?






--- On Tue, 2/26/13, loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com> wrote:

From: loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?
To: "Permaculture Listserve" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 10:50 PM


With all due respect, PI-USA has left a void, a niche, which has been filled
by this guy whoever whatever American Permaculture Association.? As Toby
hinted, PI-USA hasn't been too vocal about their role, and now other people
are stepping up to fill the niche.

Is there a list of teachers and courses accredited by PI-USA?? Is PI-USA
involved with PINA?? Is there a plan for a national gathering to discuss
this?? After 15 years I think it about time...

And sorry, if you haven't been earning a living wage doing permaculture, and
you've been doing it over 10 years then perhaps its time to re-evaluate the
sustainability of your business.

Loren Luyendyk
805-452-8249
Permaculture Design and Education
ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
www.sborganics.com
www.globalpermaculture.com
www.surferswithoutborders.com


> From: lfljvenaura@gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 00:14:17 -0500
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?
>
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:44 PM, Jason Gerhardt
> <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Who is Vladislav's teacher? He or she might want to consider retracting
> > his
> > certificate.
> >
> > Geoff Lawton & PRI. as far as I know
>
> who must endorse his method of "doing business"
>
> since the self-appointed royalty of the world of permaculture seem to take
> issue with Scott & PI
> and many others we know, and any standards regulatory infrastructure they
> may favor, then I guess its anything goes for perma-entrepreneurism and get
> rich quick off the backs of those who started and nurtured the permaculture
> movement over the decades, many of whom may have yet to earn a living wage
> from their efforts teaching and promoting PC
>
> the way to deal with the regenerawhatsis scambabbler is to spread he word
> about his sleazy offerings and methods of doing business and dealing with
> customer-suckers
> unfortunately, part of his permaculture "education" was becoming well
> versed in the get rich quick scheme and sue all those who get in the way;
> this is exactly what has unfolded to date,
> although unsuccessful, wittness his song and dance, identity morphing,
> whining begathons, phony projects.
>
>
> > Don't we already have standards? I feel like all that is left to do is
> > enforce them. We had a guy here on the Front Range start a "permaculture
> >
>
> Get on with it.
>
> institute" who had never taken a PDC. With continuous pressure from myself
> > and the help of Scott Pittman, he changed his groups name. I understand
> > Vlad is a different breed however.
> >
> > Having visions of ants carrying sick members from the colony, we ignore
> > ecological hierarchy to our own peril perhaps.
> >
> > In the end, Vlad will do what Vlad will do. And those of us really in it
> > will keep on going and making good things happen. Anybody who signs up for
> > one of Vlad's courses or programs is ignoring some major warning signs.
> > That's on them.
> >
> > "Listen, heres the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in the first half
> > hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker".
> > -Rounders
> >
> > --
> > Jason Gerhardt
> > Designer and Educator
> >
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??? ???????? ?????? ??? ?
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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:46:29 -0500
From: Chris Carnevale <c.s.carnevale@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
    <CAAUiBUcOVr=fK2eApjjr-NJjkxV0WaeqzFHLUn2v41OxMQkZJg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Since I have a Permaculture Institute USA certificate (from Peter Bane), I
assumed that everyone who offered certificates were also through PCI-USA.
If not, then what *are* the certificates that other teachers hand out?

I vote yes on a national gathering.  At minimum a virtual national
gathering via Google Hangout or another online web conferencing service,
which would make it a very small barrier for participation.  This web
conferencing service looks to host up to 200 participants for free:
http://anymeeting.com/Free-Web-Conferencing-Features.aspx.  I think an
invitation and agenda from a coalition of well recognized and respected
certifying teachers and practitioners (i.e. many on this list) would be
well-received and is a logical starting place.  Periodic (quarterly,
semi-annual, annual) web conferences would be very easy to do and while
it's not a continental convergance, it's definitely better than nothing.

Chris Carnevale
Charleston, South Carolina


------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:03:20 -0500
From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
    <CA+j2Q+C6+E6=idPxM-JhYi3ueWE_uNTJoZfcGR7KXd7760MehA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:50 AM, loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>wrote:

>
> With all due respect, PI-USA has left a void, a niche, which has been
> filled by this guy whoever whatever American Permaculture Association.  As
> Toby hinted, PI-USA hasn't been too vocal about their role, and now other
> people are stepping up to fill the niche.
>

That is so unutterable ridiculous and wrong. You do not know what you are
talking about.

>
> Is there a list of teachers and courses accredited by PI-USA?  Is PI-USA
> involved with PINA?  Is there a plan for a national gathering to discuss
> this?  After 15 years I think it about time...
>
> And sorry, if you haven't been earning a living wage doing permaculture,
> and you've been doing it over 10 years then perhaps its time to re-evaluate
> the sustainability of your business.
>

Your thoughtless, ill-informed post does not really deserve a reply. If you
are not familiar with PI USA and Scott's work and participation in this
list then you have not been paying attention or are not really interested
in the permaculture movement or permaculture in the first place.

I was referring partly to myself, spending thousands of hours and a lot of
money (ISP & equipment since 1992) starting and running this list as a poor
way to earn a living wage
for myself. I am sure there are others with considerable skills and
knowledge of permaculture  whose contributions to the permaculture movement
consist mostly of volunteerism, with low or no pay when they should be
receiving a living wage for their work.


------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 07:06:19 -0800 (PST)
From: ChildrensPeaceGuild <childrenspeaceguild@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
    <1361977579.63383.YahooMailNeo@web161604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

"our marketing is...unprecedented in the PC community"

Well, he's certainly right about that!


I am interested in the developments of both PI-USA and PINA.
It would be great if they could work together somehow. Combine resources, etc.

Best of luck to both. Inspiring times...


-Roman Shapla

Children's Permaculture Guild



________________________________
From: Ben Martin Horst <ben.martinhorst@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Who is this?

I filled out the contact form on the americanpermaculture.org website, and
received the following response, from Vlad. Note that I asked several
questions about the organizational structure and connection to the
permaculture community that he totally ignores, despite going on to talk
about "transparency."

Ben,

The Regenerative Leadership Institute is the founding member of the
American Permaculture Association.? We launched the organization as
a way of bringing unprecedented transparency to the movement without
creating any kind of a hierarchy.

In essence we are saying that here are the standards all of our
trainings meet and exceed.? Anyone else who runs permaculture
trainings is welcome to join us;? and by doing so they will also
be able to piggy-back off our marketing (which is quite frankly
unprecedented in the PC community)

------------------------------

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