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  • From: Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald AT shaw.ca>
  • To: 'Corpus-paul' <corpus-paul AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
  • Subject: Re: Paul and homosexuality?
  • Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 01:32:20 -0700


Hi again Stephen,

my conundrum is being looked at - that's the nature of the beast.

I wonder if you have come across Gary Thorne from Halifax (St George's) - a
very good friend doing doctoral work at Durham.

Now to the things you wrote:

Stephen: one does not lose desire, but makes God one's whole desire.
Obviously, that does not rule out celibacy, does it?

Bob: celibacy is a real option and may well have been Paul's 'choice' - an
objective genitive, but I think the power struggle is severe and requires
that faith in Christ's death which is so expressed in Romans. Is there a
corresponding charism in the First covenant, I wonder? I question though
whether one can 'make' God one's whole desire - Paul expresses this in these
words: if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of
Christ Jesus. (Phil 3:12) - in other words the initiative is with God not by
our own efforts at extremes of asceticism.

--------------
Stephen: When I say that Paul was an ascetic and a celibate, I do not mean
that he was devoid of desire, or that sex was his only moral concern.

Bob: I agree - and the incompleteness of the sentence is forgiven but noted:
sex is not his moral concern - abuse of sex is among his moral concerns
because such abuse is always an abuse of a relationship with another made in
the image of God.

------------
Stephen: it becomes increasingly difficult to deny that Paul was encratic.

Bob: I had to look up encratic (though I could guess from the context) and
because of Paul's uniqueness and solitude, I have always classed him as
alone in a radical sense. There are times when he seems to long for human
company. (needs further research - I have vague memories of worries about
Timothy and parchments in a trunk in Troas etc, sorry.)

-------------

Bob: John also adds - those who have this hope in themselves purify
themselves as
he is pure. This is very much in line with Nanos statement of the intent of
Romans: worship in purity together, both Gentile and Jew.

Stephen: Okay. I'm not sure exactly how some of this relates to our debate,
but maybe the debate is not the most important thing.

Bob: it was intended as an addendum to a counter example to your note that
"A negative view of sex is also present in the NT." (John in general being
not negative.) My linked thoughts are, however, obscure! Worship is not
negative; but purity - which includes not violating any relationships (leave
your gift at the altar and be reconciled to your brother first) - is
critical to worship. Sex because of its power over us violates relationships
more quickly than many other lesser powers - hence the components of the
Apostolic decree. Lewis comments that the greater gifts are subject to
greater distortions (Great Divorce I think - in which the only example of
salvation is in the man with the lizard on his shoulder who finally killed
it and it turned into a stallion on which the man rode deeper into heaven -
Lewis is doing a Romans 8:13 interpretation here).
------------
Stephen: The sociological corollary of this hermeneutical position is to
reduce the differences between Jew and Gentile, which, in fact, allowed the
Gentile to become dominant (although that was not Paul's intent).

Bob: I understand Nanos's position to be that Paul intended a continuing
distinction of Jew and gentile in post-Christ Israel. Personally, I am
inclining more to his position on what Paul thought - but I am wondering how
there can be a solution to the human dilemma today for Abraham's children.
In a nearby diocese, divisions multiply over perceived purity issues related
to human sexual behaviour.

mailto::BobMacDonald AT shaw.ca
+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

Catch the foxes for us,
the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca





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