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b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] When did )NK in Amos 7:7f become interpreted as "plumb line"?

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  • From: Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg <waldeinburg AT yahoo.com>
  • To: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
  • Cc: "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] When did )NK in Amos 7:7f become interpreted as "plumb line"?
  • Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:39:24 -0700 (PDT)

Hi Karl,

Why would lead be the preferred material in modern construction only? You
don't need formal modern physics concepts as "density" and "inertia" to think
out that heavier equals better for this purpose. And you need only a hand to
find out that lead is heavier.

I agree that etymology is not important in itself, but the point of departure
of this question is that we simply don't know what Amos saw. We only know
that he denoted it אֲנךְ, and at least from the 10th-12th century the meaning
is believed to be "plumb line". We don't even know if it
was a tool at all. So it's not that I'm using etymology to disprove
something that is otherwise straightforward (which I agree would be a bit
silly); I just point out a weakness in one interpretation. Furthermore, it
looks like etymology contributed or even led to the "plumb line"
interpretation in the first place.

Regards,
Daniel




>________________________________
> From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
>To: Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg <waldeinburg AT yahoo.com>
>Cc: "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:54 AM
>Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] When did )NK in Amos 7:7f become interpreted as
>"plumb line"?
>
>
>Daniel:
>
>
>It looks as if you are taking a modern approach to this question.
>
>
>What matters is that there is a weight at the bottom of a line that holds it
>straight for construction purposes. What the exact composition of that
>weight is not important. In modern construction, lead is the preferred
>material for the reasons you mention, but was that always the case? The
>exact etymology of the term is irrelevant, the action that it refers to is
>the deciding factor.
>
>
>Yours, Karl W. Randolph.
>
>
>On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 12:16 AM, Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg
><waldeinburg AT yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Hi Karl,
>>
>>
>>I skipped a lot of aspects of the discussion that led to the initial
>>question, so my point was probably not clear:
>>The tin/lead discussion is not only concerning the material of אֲנךְ, but
>>also wether it is a tool at all. So my point is: I find it less plausible
>>that a plumb line would be named after tin, because I think lead would be
>>cheaper and intuitively better for the job (see below). So if annaku is
>>"tin" it weakens the possibility that אֲנךְ is a plumb line. And even if it
>>is true, we do not seem to have evidence that אֲנךְ was interpreted as
>>"plumb line" before the 10th century.
>>
>>
>>Admittedly, I'm not a craftsman, but I don't think the density of lead is
>>something that is only relevant for "modern usage". You don't need a
>>physics concepts as "density" to know that "lead is heavy" (in Danish we
>>have a common expression, "blytung", i.e. "heavy as lead"). And I believe
>>it is quite intuitive that heavier equals more stable (depending on the
>>situation, of course). The job of the weight is not only to hold the line
>>straight but also as  unwavering and unaffected by the wind (in short,
>>vertical) as possible.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Daniel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>________________________________
>>> From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
>>>To: Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg <waldeinburg AT yahoo.com>
>>>Cc: Yigal Levin <Yigal.Levin AT biu.ac.il>; "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org"
>>><b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 12:17 AM
>>>
>>>Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] When did )NK in Amos 7:7f become interpreted as
>>>"plumb line"?
>>>
>>>
>>>Daniel:
>>>
>>>
>>>The question here, what was the tool used for?
>>>
>>>
>>>The advantage of lead, in modern usage, is its density, but any weight can
>>>be used and the tool is stil functional. It doesn’t matter what the tool’s
>>>weight is made of, if it holds the line straight, it does its job. If it
>>>is true as you say that the original weight was made of tin, hence its
>>>name in Akkadian, it is best to translate it not by the name “tin” rather
>>>as “ plumb-line” in English, even though “plumb” refers to lead.
>>>
>>>
>>>It is function that we look for, not form.
>>>
>>>
>>>Karl W. Randolph.
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 6:20 AM, Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg
>>><waldeinburg AT yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Hi Yigal,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks!
>>>>
>>>>Of course tin or a wooden brick or whatever could have been used for such
>>>>a tool, but if the Akkadian word gave name to the tool, I think it must
>>>>mean "lead" (tin is normally בְדִיל and lead עֹפֶרֶת, so maybe אֲנָךְ was
>>>>used only as a technical term, if we suppose it is a tool). Or to put it
>>>>another way: if annaku means "tin" I don't think it would give name to
>>>>this tool, unless it through "usage mistakes" came to mean "lead" when
>>>>entering Hebrew:
>>>>1. Lead is special because it has a high density (tin is similar to iron
>>>>in this regard). You want as much inertia as possible for this tool – if
>>>>it is not stable it does not work properly.
>>>>2. According to Landsberger lead is way cheaper than tin.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>From kirk AT grovescenter.org Wed Mar 28 07:23:48 2012
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ecc 9:12
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On 03/27/2012 01:55 AM, Pere Porta wrote:
> Dear b-hebrew listers,
>
> Ecc 9:12 -- Literally the Hebrew says: "Moreover, man does not know his
> time..........".
> I remark that the first seven words in Ecc 9:12 are often understood -as
> shown in several translations- as "the humans do not know when they will
> die".
>
> Do you feel this is a misunderstanding of the text?
> What does the Hebrew text really mean?
>

Certainly death is one event that one (generally) does not know when it
will occur.

But don't you think Qohelet has chapter three's poem on time in mind?

--
Blessings,

Kirk
--
Kirk E. Lowery, PhD
President & Senior Research Fellow
The J. Alan Groves Center for Advanced Biblical Research
--
$DO || ! $DO ; try
try: command not found




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