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b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] Iron sharpeneth iron? (Prov. 27:17)

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  • From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
  • To: Karl Randolph <kwrandolph AT email.com>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Iron sharpeneth iron? (Prov. 27:17)
  • Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 01:20:45 +0100

On 04/07/2005 22:57, Karl Randolph wrote:

Luke:

I hate to throw water on you, but .....

The form YXD &#1497;&#1495;&#1491; could come from the following roots: XDD &#1495;&#1491;&#1491;, XDH
&#1495;&#1491;&#1492;, XWD &#1495;&#1493;&#1491;, YXD &#1497;&#1495;&#1491;, it is the context that
helps us decide which one. All of these roots are expressed as verbs in Tanakh.


(Note, Karl, that you cannot use this HTML notation for Hebrew characters in plain text e-mail. I don't know if you see any Hebrew characters above, but I don't.)

YXD as a verb occures only twice (there is a third time listed in the
concordance, but that is questionable) Genesis 49:6 and Isaiah 14:20. Both
cases have grammatical constructs connected with the verb: in Genesis it
mentions the locative sense (in their assembly) and in Isaiah the word
“with”. Such a grammatical construct is lacking in both uses in Proverbs 27.
While that is not proof against your friend’s understanding, it does weaken
it.


Karl, I don't know quite what you mean by "grammatical constructs" here. Not apparently what is usually called the construct state. In Genesis 49:6 there is a sentence with a subject KBDY, no direct object, but a locative adverbial QHLM introduced with B-. In Isaiah 14:20 the construction is similar except that the second person subject is incorporated into the verb, the locative adverbial with B- is QBWRH, and there is an additional adverbial of accompaniment )TM "with them", hence "you will not be united to a grave with them". And in Proverbs 27:17 the construction is identical in the first half verse: subject BRZL, locative adverbial BRZL again with B-; in the second half verse the subject is )Y$, but B- is omitted before the locative adverbial PNY-R(HW is introduced, presumably for stylistic reasons and perhaps because the combination BPNY usually has connotations of hostility which are inappropriate here.

So I see no reason in the grammatical construction to rule out the verb YXD here. It is the Masoretic pointing which rules it out, as I pointed out before, for the verb YXD could not have patah in the first syllable (which is stressed), implying that this is not a verb at all but the adverb YAXAD "together". But oddly I cannot find a case of YAXAD, or the similar YAXDAW, with an adverbial meaning "together with".

The second word in the Proverb, BBRZL can either be a locative use, or
instrumental. Seeing as iron, unlike an assembly, is a solid, the locative
use is pretty much ruled out, ...


This simply doesn't follow. It is quite possible to be joined or united with a solid - as has been suggested before, by magnetism or welding, or all kinds of other means of fixing two solid objects together.

... leaving the instrumental. If the verb has the meaning of to join, where
is the instrumental in the parallelism of the second half of the proverb? ...


Why does there have to be an instrumental? There is no instrumental in Genesis 49:6 or Isaiah 14:20.

... An implied instrumental use is there if the meaning of sharpen is used.
Again that weakens your friend’s understanding.

The other two verbs don’t make any sense when used in this context.

While I am being cautious not to claim that your friend’s understanding is
ruled out, I find it weaker than when the verb to sharpen is used.


Well, I tried to do a similar analysis for the meaning "sharpen", the verb XDD (or possibly XDH). If you are taking Proverbs 27:17 as Qal, the only other occurrence of the verb is in Habakkuk 1:8, and there is no instrumental adverbial there. The Hophal is found only at Ezekiel 21:14,15,16, and again no instrumental adverbial. These are the only occurrences, except for the doubtful Proverbs 27:17. So your proposal that this is the verb in the Proverbs verse is by your own criteria seriously weakened (but not ruled out), because it is a unique construction of XDD (or XDH) with an explicit instrument.

Perhaps the root XWD makes sense here after all, for clearly this is a riddle!

--
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



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