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  • From: "Williams, Wes" <Wes.Williams AT echostar.com>
  • To: peter_kirk AT SIL.ORG, b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu, Wes.Williams AT echostar.com
  • Subject: RE: Re[2]: Translations and Bias
  • Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:44:22 -0600


Dear Peter,

Perhaps I did not make myself clear in my earlier post, because you respond
with points with which I strongly agree! So, I will not comment much in
return but will simply add a few clarifying notes.

> Dear Wes,
>
> I agree with the first part of what I quote below from your E-mail.
> But then you go on to confuse two issues. In Luke 2:7 "her firstborn",
> i.e. "firstborn of Mary", does not mean "born before Mary", but rather
> "born before the other children of Mary". The firstborn of Pharaoh is
> not another earlier Pharaoh but one of Pharaoh's sons. The firstborn
> of a sheep is the first of the lambs of that sheep, not its older
> sibling. It seems to me that "firstborn of X", at least when X is
> singular, does not generally have a direct partitive force, although
> there is still "an implicit group". On the same analogy, one would
> expect "firstborn of all creation" to mean "born before the other
> children of all creation" rather than "born before all the rest of
> creation". At least that is a very reasonable alternative explanation
> rather than one showing bias.
>
That is why I distinguish possessive genitives from pure partitives. Still,
the possessive still *implies* the existence of a group in which the
prwtotokos is first in time. For example, the expression "her firstborn" is
an example that I qualify as a possessive genitive, but implies that the
firstborn is part of a group of sons that come from "her." The same is true
of proper names as "the firstborn of Jacob," which is semantically
equivalent to 'the firstborn [of the sons] of Jacob."

We should also pay attention to the lexical properties of the noun in the
genitive, whether a collective noun ("firstborn of all creation") or a
generic noun ("firstborn of beast") or a plural noun ("firstborn of your
sons"). But none of the semantics changes the inherent lexical partitive
force of prwtotokos.

Therefore, I must respectfully disagree that "the firstborn of [singular] X"
takes away the inherent lexically partitive force of prwtotokos, as I
illustrated above. Your proposed suggestion, "born before the other children
of all creation" is possible, as long as the one 'born before' is part of
the same group. I must call attention to the lack of support where the
firstborn is not part of the group to which it is related.


> Meanwhile, can you show me a case in the New Testament of PRWTOTOKOS +
> genitive of X unambiguously meaning "born before X" rather than "born
> before the other children of X"? For that matter (and to give you a
> question whose answer I don't already know!), how about a case in LXX
> where X is singular?
>
I am confused. Why would you think I posit that PRWTOTOKOS of X means "born
before X" since I never stated that meaning in any of my posts? (I even went
back and reread). I am unclear as to why you require this since I do not
assert it in my position. Hopefully I clarified it above and perhaps a
re-reading of my previous posts will help. But I believe you may have
misunderstood my position since I apparently agree here with your
conclusion. "Born before the other children of X" means that the "one born
before" is also a child *in the same group* as other children.

> Just to clarify: the phrase "prwtotokos twn basilewn" is NOT found at
> Psalm 89:27 (LXX 88:28). In fact I would be surprised ever to see such
> a phrase as a singular prwtotokos can only have one male parent. Or
> can you find such a phrase meaning something like "the eldest of the
> kings"? I note that in Job 1:13,18 where BEKOWR is used and the only
> genitive in the context is of the other brothers, so that English
> translations read "eldest", LXX has translated not PRWTOTOKOS but
> PRESBUTEROS. Even in Genesis 4:4, presumably the lamb which Abel took
> was the first offspring of one of his sheep as well as being itself
> one of his sheep, so that case is ambiguous. Even Exodus 13:15 (fourth
> occurrence LXX), 22:28, 34:20 cannot be partitive but must refer to
> grandsons (in the thinking of the LXX translator), for the singular
> "mou/sou" who can only have one eldest son and so "pan" is
> inappropriate.
>
> Peter Kirk
>
>
Thank you Peter, for taking the time to make my very point! I see Exodus
13:15, 22:28, 34:20 as simple partitives regardless of how you interpret it,
so, either way.

Sincerely,
Wes Williams

> ______________________________ Reply Separator
> _________________________________
> Subject: Re: Translations and Bias
> Author: Wes.Williams AT echostar.com at internet
> Date: 05/04/1999 16:26
>
>
> <snip>
>
> As respects the word "firstborn," the *lexical* force of prwtotokos
> requires
> an explicit or implicit partitive, a group in which the firstborn is first
>
> in time. When the genitive following "firstborn" is possessive, it still
> implies an implicit group. Thus, Luke 2:7, the expression "her firstborn"
> implies first in time with respect to a group of children. This holds true
>
> in *all* biblical passages except in cases of simile or metaphor, as I
> mentioned previously, which you did not address. The word "firstborn" is a
>
> partitive word. The same is true of your proposed interpretation, Col 1:18
>
> and Col 1:15. There is no difference in the lexical force of the word,
> that
> the prwtotokos/ BeQWR is part of the group. Thus "the firstborn of the
> sheep" (Gen 4:4) is a sheep. The "firstborn of Pharoah" is one of
> Pharoah's
> sons. The "firstborn of your sons" is himself a son.
>
> <snip>
>
> In conclusion, I find no lexical support for your pragmatic/ theological
> view
> that requires the firstborn to be external to the group from any verses in
>
> the entire bible. Ps 89:27 adds no support either since the firstborn is
> not
> "prwtotokos twn basilewn" but is God's firstborn.
>
> <snip>




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