Dear Karl,
Thank you for your answer. I thought that it was possible to discuss this
subject here, by having read some of the archives of the list; I understand
it is very sensitive. I do not want to make proselytism, just to express my
opinions. I have been reading a lot of Greek litterature and just find
strange how many parallels are to be found with the Tanakh. So I started
asking myself questions. The book of Micheal Astour is a very good one, as
he points many of those parallels; after him came Martin West and his "East
face of Helicon".
But these authors think that ideas only travel from East to West, never the
other way around. This can be called proselytism also, in your definition of
the term.
... It is true that many mythical characters and Greek gods have aIn Herodotos' day, the Jewish diaspora had already reached all over
semitic origin. But what the Greeks knew from the semitic world seems more
like Cananean or Phenician culture rather biblical culture. For instance
Belos derives from semitic god Baal or Bel, Melikertes from Melkart, the
biblical Molekh; and also Adonis that comes from Tammuz, as you mentionned.
These gods are the idols despised by the authors of the Tanakh; but I don't
think the Greeks knew anything directly from the Tanakh. For instance,
Herodotos knew only Syria and Palestine. Yet you can find many parallel
themes with the Bible in his Historia. Did he copied the Bible, and
deliberately hid his knowledge of Judea? Maybe.
...
>Just as there was trade in objects, so there was trade in ideas as
>well. The Jewish diaspora, started under Nebuchadnezzar, could very
>well have reached Greece by the time of Plato, so you can't rule out
>his being influenced by and taking examples from Hebrew sources. Jews
>and Jewish ideas were known in Hellenistic cities in Asia Minor by
>Plato's time.
Indeed; but my problem is that I find very accurate parallels with all the
famous Greeks writers, from Homer to Apollonios Rhodius. The Fathers of the
Church claimed that all of them stole from the Bible. This was a rational
point of view, for men who knew both litteratures very well.
... I have come toIt could be that if the similarities are mentioned, the question
the opposite conclusion. The reading of Plato's Laws is very disturbing. I
recommand it to anyone who has some curiosity, not wanting to push my
opinions about the dating. These similarities raise a huge question, and I
find it troubling that no one, either in universities or anywhere, is ready
to discuss it.
>You admit "But yes, these theories do ruin both judaism and
>christianism if they are right." That admission is enough to say that
>you are not to push your beliefs, for that is proselytism to your
>religion. You may mention your beliefs, and others on this list may
>counter with interpretations based on their beliefs, but in the
>absence of historical data neither can insist in this forum that his
>interpretation is the correct one. Proselytism is the venue of other
>forums, please not here.
The ideas I express are not a religion, and I just wanted to have some
opinions about them, and I do not expect others to agree; I think that what
I say is correct, knowing many evidences that I am willing to share with
you, not to convince you but just to make you realise, at least, of the
great similarities with the Greek litterature. This can help for giving
etymologies and focus on the topic of the hebrew language. But if the idea
of a Greek influence is not acceptable here, I will not insist.
Regards,
Philippe Wajdenbaum
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