Typical Girls: Women in Punk/Post-Punk/Underground Music (Circa 1975-1980s)

[Blythe Sheldon <blythe.sheldon AT gmail.com>]

her androgyny from the mapplethorpe era is definitely attractive. however, acting like a tough guy as a means to appearing 'liberated' and being taken seriously on the scene is a form of female chauvinism. she was doing a variation on jim morrison's fake mystical poetry schtick and cutting her hair like keith richards--styling herself as a guy. re: tobi's comment about working class women not directly identifying with second wave feminism, please join me for a bit of nerdery and look at this excerpt from a 1976 rolling stone profile. her posturing was a complex defense: 

Patti was a true working class girl. When she worked in a factory during and after high school, it was for the cash, not experience. (The experience did provide the basis of her epic "Piss Factory," though.) Still, in a tough lower-class town, she was strange, and so was everything about her from her family and ideas to her body itself. It was reedy and breastless even then, as much a boy's as a woman's. Patti knew it; maybe she even exploited it: "Even since I felt the need to choose I'd choose male. I felt boy rhythums when I was in knee pants. So I stayed in pants. I sobbed when I I had to use the public ladies room. My undergarments made me blush. Every feminine gesture I affected from my mother humiliated me," she wrote in her 1967 poem called "Female."

this is a lot to unpack in an e-mail and digressive, I just wanted to throw it out there. she's a rock icon for sure. I'm not surprised she doesn't consider herself a feminist one. 

I also reviewed just kids. it's great. http://therumpus.net/2010/02/outside-of-society/

thanks,

b

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 6:59 PM, Tobi Vail <tobivail AT gmail.com> wrote:

a lot of working class women didn't identify with second wave feminism, I think that is part of it, but there's a lot of stuff going on. i don't 'identify with' a lot of stuff that could be called feminist but tend to think its up to us to change the world, and that includes what feminism is, what being a girl in a band means, what being a woman in a patriarchal society means, etc

 i also reviewed Just Kids at the bumpidee reader, it's a really terrific book:

http://thebumpideereader.blogspot.com/2010/01/just-kids-by-patti-smith.html

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Sharon Cheslow <decomposition AT mindspring.com> wrote:

Can't wait to read it!  Thanks for the review Tobi.

Dina, I like your image of a giant constellation.  I guess the way I think about it is that there is some sort of recognizable constellation of women musicians, because women have learned to survive by forming networks with other women.  Or if they haven't, and they either don't align themselves with a female network or they are more male-centric, they nonetheless get grouped in with other women by virtue of gender.  But I don't think there's something uniquely female or feminine about these groups of women, other than that the female singing voice obviously has different sonic properties than the male singing voice - and looking at women one obviously notices physical differences.  So I think one can feel part of large feminist force while at the same time feeling part of other forces that have nothing to do with gender.

On a related side note - I saw Patti Smith do readings a week ago for her new book Just Kids, about her years in NY with Robert Mapplethorpe.  She was so inspiring!  I saw her at the Hammer Museum, doing a tribute to Harry Smith (who lived in the Chelsea Hotel with her and Robert), and at Skylight Books.  It's interesting that many women from the first wave of punk - like Patti Smith - didn't even consider themselves feminists.  Patti told a story about an interview she did with a "feminist magazine" (maybe Ms.?) in the '70s, and she joked that she didn't know why they'd want to interview her.

Sharon

here's my review:

http://jigsawunderground.blogspot.com/2010/02/girl-power-nineties-revolution-in-music.html

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Dina Hornreich <dina.hornreich AT gmail.com> wrote:

Is anyone else reading Marisa Meltzer's book on the explosion of
women in rock/pop music in the 90s?

I'm only halfway through it right now, but I do see it's relevance to
this listserv. It begins with a chapter on riot grrrl, and it
includes interviews with list-members like Sharon Cheslow and Tobi
Vail.  I think she puts things into a historical perspective that is
certainly valid (albeit a little subjective), and overlaps with mine
(being from "that" generation).

Reading it reminds me of a theory I never developed about women in
music being part of some kind of giant constellation rather than
unifying category in and of itself.  There is no one identifying
factor, but taking a few gigantic steps back you can see something
uniquely identifyingly female. Or not.

What is weird is that it keeps me wondering why I choose (or have
chosen) to listen to the music that I do -- to hear what's new and
innovative and interesting without overlooking the tendency of women
to have been marginalized; to feel like I am part of something bigger
and important (a feminist force); just because it catches me in that
certain way.

On an unrelated note, I have to thank the list for introducing me to
bands like wetdog and the coathangers. Did we discuss tUnE-yArDs?

...Dina

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