I don't much like Iggy Pop - not enough
sincerity for me.
I agree the term punk is widely misused and its meaning is unclear. I
take it to mean - "raw" and "abductive" (in the semeiotic sense), as
opposed to "produced" and "intellectual." I don't know if that works
:-)
Steven
rara boom wrote:
So many cool references and a brilliant analogy Steven, thankyou
for that.
PJ is great don't get me wrong but I dunno it seems like
everything is a bit punk these days. I am very weary of the term and
not quite sure about its' meaning. Like everything else it has been
commodified and screwed over.
I was thinking about "defying conventional appearances"
and going against conventions of how women are supposed to appear, and
I think that currently, Missy Elliot could fit that category. Coming
out being what is conventionally considered overweight, then in her
video, wearing an inflatible suit that makes her look even larger!! Her
new album, and look are more "typical", but I still like her. This may
be a "typical girls" stretch, but I'm looking for a new direction in my
music...
Also, not exactly sure why, but I've never been a huge Sousxie
fan. Maybe I'll give her another try.
-----Original
Message-----
From: Steven Ericsson Zenith <steven AT semeiosis.com>
To: rara boom <the_nancies AT yahoo.com.au>,
typicalgirls AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:19:42 -0700
Subject: Re: [TypicalGirls] defying conventional appearances
PJ Harvey is "punk-blues" - I heard this description or saw it in some
literature associated with her gigs here recently - and I think it is a
sound characterization of her work.
Siousxe-Soux's 1980's FACE cover and spread are definitive examples of
how the punk movement influenced media and commercial art - whenever I
see modern commercial spreads I always think back to those FACE spreads
and how almost everything afterwards tried to emulate them. In many
ways they were works of art in their own right.
As to their impact and the impact of punk culture in general - I guess
the obvious response is to say that mainstream art was relatively
unaffected. Warhol had been there and done that with the Velvet
Underground. Lou Reed (who was a key part of the Velvet Underground)
was proto-punk.
It may be the case that one can point to Basquiat in the art world -
but I wouldn't - since I think that Basquiat was not punk, he was a man
of his time but clearly from the New York school of contemporary art,
in some sense inevitable - influenced more by Robert Rauschenberg and
Willem de Kooning than John Rotten.
The Sex Pistols were not inevitable from my point of view - they took
me by suprise, at least :-)
The Sex Pistols got their 15 minutes - but it is Siouxsie and Budgie
that became an immortal force for the generation and continue today to
be as fresh and innovative as they ever were. The first edition of The
Creatures in the early 1990 was a stunning example of the reall driving
force of innovation in Punk. Few compare.
With respect,
Steven
rara boom wrote:
This discussion is so so very interesting. It's great to
see an autonomous discussion space working so effectively. Wow, I never
considered PJ Harvey as "punk", what do you mean by the reference "blue
punk". By the way, how cool are the slits?! if you haven't heard them
before check out myspace and look up the slits in the music section.
It's strange I seem to be working backwards here... I am
in a band and we make music and didn't even realise it was kind of punk
and draws parallels with some of the bands that have been mentioned in
this discussion forum. I wonder if these revolutionary womens' punk
bands set out with an intent to fit a anti-society all-grrl punk band
image or if that's what they fell into cause it was what they were
passionate about? What do you think?
The link between punk and music and art is definately so
so strong. However, what about artists like Andy Warhol? Appropriation
in all forms seems to be a very familiar exploration trail for all
types of punks. There is also (like everything else) global trends with
punk too. I am a bit of an enthusiast of the japanese punks ("fruits")
these days. Their clothes are so nice and they are hot hot hot!
However, I was speaking to someone who had been to Japan (where I am
dying to go!) and they mentioned that the cultural and social
sensibilities in east and west Japan are completely different. You're
probably focusing on the western based punk era anyway...
Thanks so much to the kind people who are posting the MP3s
at the moment too!! Really wicked xx Sarah
Dear Larry and list,
The impression I have - and please correct me if I am wrong - is that
the Punk movement was essentially a movement of the working-classes.
Whereas the people you mention here are all people of the upper class.
I find the comparison between Dadaism and Punk an interesting one. But
I feel the dynamic is very different - the forces against which the
movements rebelled have a very different character.
I admit that in 1979 I did not appreciate that dynamic - which was
mainly an anti-intellectual male macho movement ... then Siousxie branched
out and I was sold.
I think generally that male Punk never did leave the old gender stereo
types. As witness by McClaren's exploitation of the early-teen sex in B
ow Wow Wow. But then McClaren was an upper class public-schoolboy twit
as I recall.
That first year had all the old gender roles despite the bin-bags and
extreme make up. I think women in Punk led in England by Siousxie -
came into their own in the following years as a distinct movement as
they increasing found new ways to use Punk as a platform - Culminating
in the mainstream acceptance of Toyah.
The transformation of women in music was even more significant than the
social impact. But it seems to me that the female movements dynamics
are orthogonal and more intelligent than the blunt unthinking male
banging of the head against the wall.
Siousxie and the Banshees gender blend as the New Romantics come
of age - and I think it is Bowie's bisexual/asexual influence in
England that responds to Punk in the most significant way for the male
gender (in that it was wide ly influential).
Ultimately, in the mainstream, Japan and the Adam Ant reinstate the
"pretty boy" and Culture Club end up being a caricature parody or farce
of the gender blend.
But I think that, despite Bowie's consistent pressure upon gender
through out the 1970s it was the female punk movement as a subculture,
intelligently exploiting the anti-intellectual male macho Punk movement
as a platform that had the most profound social and musical influence.
Leading all the way to my current favorite punk-blue girl - PJ Harvey
:-)
With respect,
Steven
Larry-bob wrote:
Maybe it's being kinda Greil Marcus to conflate Dada with Punk,
but I would cite Baroness Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven as a proto-feminist
proto-punk who pioneered extreme dress style half a century before the
1970s.
Her Leigh Bowery-esque looks included wearing a coal scuttle on her
head as a bonnet and pasting postage stamps on her cheeks.
There is much more material on her now than than was once available,
including books. There also has been at least one stage play based
on her life.
Photo of Elsa:
http://www.artnet.com/magazine/features/oisteanu/oisteanu5-20-1.asp
brief bio:
http://www.klausmartens.com/elsework.html
books:
Irene Gammel, Baroness Elsa. Gender, Dada, and Everyday Modernity.
A Cultural Biography. Cambridge: MIT Press, 2002
Paul Hjartarson, Tracy Kulba, eds. The Politics of Cultural Mediation.
Baroness Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven and Felix Paul Greve. Edmonton:
The University of Alberta Press, 2003.
Also worth mentioning is Marya Delvard, the German kabaret star who
performed
at such venues as "Elf Scharfrichter" (Eleven Executioners) and whose
look, circa 1901, prefigured goth --
http://www.uazg.hr/likovna-kultura/images22/Krizman.jpg
See Lisa Appignanesi's book "Cabaret -- the first 100 years"
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