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  • From: Robyn Williamson <rz.williamson AT optusnet.com.au>
  • To: piw AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [piw] Re: teething problems?
  • Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:01:10 +1100

On Friday, January 28, 2005, at 04:02 am, Stephanie wrote:

Thanks for the wonderful feedback, Robyn.
(Are you the Robyn I corresponded with a while back?
Welcome!)

err ... i don't think so ... it must have been the famous Australian scientist Robyn Williams ... but thanks anyway Stephanie
(just kidding - yes, it's only me;-)

You asked, "Also, would it be possible that if we enter a species name
for example, we get all the plants in the family? Many may be compatible
with each other and it could be a first step to making a guild,
especially if it's only physical characteristics we are combining into
the guild (height/width etc) e.g. ground cover, with shrub, tree and
vine."

Certainly. However, many plants in the same family share the same pests,
etc.

True, they do, and the example I gave was maybe not good, it was just a thought. The purpose of plant families is in identification of the relationships between groups of plants. The information is not geographically confined and applicable in any region despite adaptations or variations brought on by climatic and other influences. You rarely find plants in the same family that would fall into all four categories of ground cover, shrub, tree and vine anyway, except some of the really big families, but herbs together with ground covers, shrubs, trees, bulbs and vines creates "stacking" or vertical edge, saving space and helping to keep out invaders. That is what I understand a guild to be, i.e. a collection of mutually beneficial plants; but what is a pest? Many people would think of fungus as a pest or disease, however most vascular plants rely on mycorrhizal (fungus-root) associations. They may even be communicating with each other in this way, who knows? Fact is, you rarely get things like pests and diseases in healthy natural systems and that is what we are aiming for, n'est-ce pas?

To my knowledge, we will be organizing/sorting plants on a Pc-
characteristic basis (including functions satisfied, pests, and
otherwise). Accordingly, if you are searching for compatibility, you
would not necessarily (or only) get plants in the same family (unless you
specifically chose to),

Sounds good - so we search for the species if we want to find out the family, and then search the family to return the full result. Also, instead of using words like pest, disease, weed, etc, I for one would prefer to see a simple term like "known problems" and for Pc-characteristics perhaps "Uses - culinary/medicinal/other"? With plant families, genera and species, botanical taxonomists often re-classify and/or change names to comply with the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature as new information comes to hand. What does the piw do with synonyms? because firstly we must be sure we are all talking about the same plant [that is the purpose of international nomenclature] and only secondly about whether or not we are able to lessen the confusion for people IMO.

but plants from other families that might be
considered 'companion plants.'

Excellent, that's what I was hoping for. A good evidence-based read on this topic is "Successful Organic Gardening" by David R. Murray (2000), Kangaroo Press/Simon & Schuster Australia, 20 Barcoo St, East Roseville NSW 2069, pp. 18-24. In Chapter 2 Dr Murray takes on the difficult and myth-laden subject of companion planting and even refers to most of what has been written as "derivative nonsense or misguided invention". Here is a quote from p.18: "Competition and co-operation are the key ecological principles fundamental to human understanding of the ways plants live with one another, and with other organisms. These principles are not mutually exclusive, and many apparently competitive or parasitic relationships are symbiotic in a broader sense. Take cicadas for example. Their dependence on the roots of trees to provide total nutrition during the nymphal stages is at first sight parasitic. But is it really? As spring arrives, the maturing cicada nymphs drill new tunnels through the soil, right to the surface. The ground near host trees becomes literally peppered with small but obvious holes. As a result, air is carried to much greater depths below the soil surface than usual, improving the availability of oxygen [and water ... R] to the whole root system. This is a major benefit to these trees at a time when the potential for growth rate to increase is raised by increasing temperatures ..." ... "Are ... [they] ... always purely competitive? The answer is often no, and the simplest view of companion plants is that they are plants that help one another when grown together ... perhaps better than either would do alone ... conversely, there are plants that seem to antagonize one another such as basil and rue, or beans and fennel." Then there are plants known as allelopaths which allow nothing else to grow near them.

Furthermore, organizing the plants on a
Pc-characteristic basis would allow for *substitution* of plants - which
would be very useful.

Indeed! When I can't find a specific plant I look for it's closest relative. But if I'm looking for "cloves" for example, would I also get things like Dianthus that have a similar/substitute taste? In this case we are looking at the difference between a tree and a herb/ground cover.

According to Dr. Murray, the following is as true for strawberries, as it is for apricots, cherries, nectarines, peaches and plums (all, including the strawberries, are in the same family) and I would therefore not hesitate to conclude that it would be the same for almonds, apples, pears and quinces (which are also in the same family). But nettle isn't. Misguided invention? you'll never ever know until you have a go, or trust someone who has. Dr Murray adds: "Does the stinging nettle gain anything from these associations? Even if it gains nothing but space, it is doing well in a competitive world". Fact is if I could handle all that nettle I would grow it with just about everything because of its beneficial interactions with the soil.

"The strawberry grows underneath the nettle,
And wholesome berries thrive and ripen best
Neighboured by fruit of baser quality"
William Shakespeare
Henry V, Act 1, Scene 1

I suppose it depends on how professional we want or need to be in individual cases, but one thing's for sure - anything less than scientific permaculture will give us all a bad reputation in the long run because we can so easily be proven wrong.

Best regards,
Robyn

CONTACT DETAILS:

Robyn Williamson
PDC, Urban Horticulturist
Hon Sec, Fagan Park Community Eco Garden Committee
Local Seed Network Coordinator
NORTH WESTERN SYDNEY COMMUNITY SEED SAVERS
mobile: 0409 151 435
ph/fx: (612) 9629 3560
email: rz.williamson AT optusnet.com.au
http://www.communityfoods.com.au
http://www.au.gardenweb.com/directory/fpceg
http://www.seedsavers.net/lsn/32.html
http://www.sydney.foe.org.au/water





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