Thank you sir And friend of the Dr.They loved each other for the others sake, not their own.
Sent from my iPad On Jul 23, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Marcus Smith <marcus AT loyno.edu> wrote:
“ if we accept Percy's Catholicism."
I’m sort of uneasy with the (frequent) efforts to invoke Percy as a touchstone for various Catholic doctrinal issues. We knew Walker and Bunt and their daughters for 20+ years. We visited them. They were guests in our house. We went to some semiotic conferences with Walker. I certainly “accept” that Walker was a Catholic. A serious Catholic. But like all of us he was (and is) a complex mystery. I wouldn’t begin to try to invoke his faith to support any particular doctrines, unless it is the play choices of an LSU football coach. Also, Percy started out as a Presbyterian (I think) as well as traversing a period of non-believing. He understood all these languages and dialects and could and did run them through his conversations. But except for LSU football, I would move carefully before invoking Percy’s faith for particular doctrinal claims. Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:
1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica)
2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier)
3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life (janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com)
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500
From: Steve Petrica <steve.petrica AT gmail.com>
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
<percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life
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Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series
on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina
philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she
presents *The
Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to
relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions."
https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700
From: Thomas Gollier <tgollier AT gmail.com>
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
<percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9
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Mike and David,
Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write: "if we
accept Percy's Catholicism."
For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French
existentialism, his Catholicism has
been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me. Although I realize this is his
calling card with many of his readers,
it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read
'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion.
Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an
objective moral order," that you used in
your first message opening this topic.
A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective phenomenon. It
can be shared intersubjectively,
take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many over
such long periods of time that there
is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution" or
semantically as "objective." And, in fact,
Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective mass by
aggressively proselytizing itself
around the world. But in an essentially important way, a moral order
remains subjective phenomenon
regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance. A moral order
can only gain intersubjectivity by
being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own.
A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others, with
whatever personal quirks they
may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they
implement it in their own interactions
with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at the
end of the novel. He is going
to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own
interactions with others. He hopes, even
assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't change
anything about what he intends
to do. His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his objective
interactions with others is what is
needed to get released and to find absolution.
And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I don't
know how many pages of
Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the
"transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival).
But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar
resolution and absolution in the course of
the novel. For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic moral
order into action on a local level.
I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the local
priest could be. Someone knowing
everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when you
were lost. You could lay out what
was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you are, and
the priest could give
you absolution, a restart back on the right path. By "going native"
Percival would be making his moral order
existentially objective as well.
And then there was Anna? She was communicating again and was being
released too.
In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not just
those to priests and psychiatrists,
but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such as
that. They all demand contrition
and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very different
standards as to what produces or
qualifies for that absolution. They certainly seem to play a bigger role
in our lives than I thought before
reading this novel.
Thanks,
Tom
On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson <larsonovic AT gmail.com>
wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the
> afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less
> hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People
> have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude it
> from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's anticipatory
> perceptions of it.
>
> You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously
> with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then
> presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions have
> been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective notion--one
> person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were
> getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be
> communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the
> divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in
> question.
>
> But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and
> communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God
> (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a
> description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge. But
> he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has
> attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas.
> And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that
> Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's
> not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes."
>
> So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a
> refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no
> unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision.
> But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no
> confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now
> except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed,
> according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him, the
> thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's
> release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long
> recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death.
> And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new
> beginning of sorts but not a happy one.
>
> In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that
> Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of Percival
> over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel
> more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead.
> We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in the
> cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave,
> that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life,
> Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays.
> But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate,
> and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance.
>
> On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been
> telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we can
> speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring
> Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's end,
> he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to
> reach in order to find life.
>
> Mike
>
>
>> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000
>> From: "Beck, David A" <dabeck AT iupui.edu>
>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>> <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue
>> 6
>> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 AT iupui.edu" target="_blank">1595009067780.10724 AT iupui.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't
>> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to
>> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he
>> wasn't repentant.
>>
>
> It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At
>> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After
>> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he
>> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in
>> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real
>> protagonist.
>>
>
> If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-)
>>
>
> Just my two cents.
>>
>> -David
>>
>> David Beck
>> Senior Lecturer
>> English Department
>> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis
>> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E
>> Indianapolis, IN 46202
>> 317-278-2550
>>
>
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC)
From: "janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com" <janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com>
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
<percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life
Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490 AT mail.yahoo.com" target="_blank">213691927.4924047.1595468887490 AT mail.yahoo.com>
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I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The Moviegoer. Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel.
I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it out.I am not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled with malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels. And I love his humor.
The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated soul.?
So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at heart.?
I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so aptly described the novel.
Thank you for this.
Janet Cantor
On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica <steve.petrica AT gmail.com> wrote:
Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions."
https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning
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