Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

[Michael Larson <larsonovic AT gmail.com>]

Tom, Something else I meant to say but forgot before I clicked SEND: I've really appreciated thinking about Lancelot from this perspective. Very interesting exercise. So thanks for that!  ML

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 12:08 PM Michael Larson <larsonovic AT gmail.com> wrote:

Tom,

I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude it from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's anticipatory perceptions of it.

You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions have been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective notion--one person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in question.

But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge. But he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas. And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes."

So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision. But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed, according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him, the thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death. And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new beginning of sorts but not a happy one.

In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of Percival over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead. We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in the cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave, that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life, Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays. But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate, and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance.

On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we can speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's end, he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to reach in order to find life.

Mike

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:06 PM <percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 (Thomas Gollier)
   2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 (Lauren Berdy)
   3. Re: [External] Re:  Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
      (Beck, David A)


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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 09:13:03 -0700
From: Thomas Gollier <tgollier AT gmail.com>
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
Message-ID:
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Mike,

Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all
along that he was talking to God
? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize
until pretty far along that this
other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a
conversation with another
seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me,
but either way, God or Percival
was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring
to Lance dying in the
explosion along with the others in the house.

So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no
longer living, and what they
have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If
I can go further out on the
limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we
are with ourselves. Unlike
how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things
objectively, there can be no
dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that
subjective self will evaporate. If
that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can
be one thing for Lance and
another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a
"poison" to the social and
objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession
all along seems to be the
story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his
redemption at the end.

That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the
first time, but in my defense, I
think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic
thought" as Wallace Stevens
put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying
to describe the vista Percy opened
up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it.

Thanks,
Tom

On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson <larsonovic AT gmail.com> wrote:

> Tom,
>
> Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the
> explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of
> a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from
> beyond the grave?
>
> I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two
> different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both
> ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both,
> objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the
> reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is.
>
> But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning.
>
> Best,
> Mike
>
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 13:32:53 -0400
From: Lauren Berdy <lauren.stacy.berdy AT gmail.com>
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
Message-ID: <5f11e0c5.1c69fb81.f2a7b.43bf AT mx.google.com" target="_blank">5f11e0c5.1c69fb81.f2a7b.43bf AT mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

. ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If
that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can be one thing for Lance and
another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a "poison" to the social and
objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession all along seems to be the
story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his redemption at the end.?


The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he himself struggled with his own subjective self.

The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the unknowing?
 The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence.  Whilst the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised and silent. The  space in the painting corresponds to the interval between the thought and the mind.

Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is that then Compassion?

Thank you



Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Thomas Gollier
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM
To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6

Mike,

Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all along that he was talking to God
? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize until pretty far along that this
other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a conversation with another
seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, but either way, God or Percival
was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring to Lance dying in the
explosion along with the others in the house.

So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no longer living, and what they
have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If I can go further out on the
limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we are with ourselves. Unlike
how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things objectively, there can be no
dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If
that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can be one thing for Lance and
another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a "poison" to the social and
objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession all along seems to be the
story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his redemption at the end.

That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the first time, but in my defense, I
think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic thought" as Wallace Stevens
put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying to describe the vista Percy opened
up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it.

Thanks,
Tom

On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson <larsonovic AT gmail.com> wrote:
Tom,

Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from beyond the grave?

I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is.

But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning.

Best,
Mike

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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000
From: "Beck, David A" <dabeck AT iupui.edu>
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re:  Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue
        6
Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 AT iupui.edu" target="_blank">1595009067780.10724 AT iupui.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he wasn't repentant.


It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real protagonist.


If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-)


Just my two cents.


-David


David Beck
Senior Lecturer
English Department
Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis
425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-278-2550
________________________________
From: Percy-L <percy-l-bounces+dabeck=iupui.edu AT lists.ibiblio.org> on behalf of Lauren Berdy <lauren.stacy.berdy AT gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 1:32 PM
To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
Subject: [External] Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6

This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.

. ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If
that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can be one thing for Lance and
another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a "poison" to the social and
objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession all along seems to be the
story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his redemption at the end.?


The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he himself struggled with his own subjective self.

The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the unknowing?
The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence.  Whilst the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised and silent. The  space in the painting corresponds to the interval between the thought and the mind.

Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is that then Compassion?

Thank you



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Thomas Gollier<mailto:tgollier AT gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM
To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion<mailto:percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6

Mike,

Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all along that he was talking to God
? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize until pretty far along that this
other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a conversation with another
seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, but either way, God or Percival
was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring to Lance dying in the
explosion along with the others in the house.

So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no longer living, and what they
have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If I can go further out on the
limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we are with ourselves. Unlike
how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things objectively, there can be no
dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If
that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can be one thing for Lance and
another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a "poison" to the social and
objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession all along seems to be the
story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his redemption at the end.

That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the first time, but in my defense, I
think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic thought" as Wallace Stevens
put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying to describe the vista Percy opened
up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it.

Thanks,
Tom

On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson <larsonovic AT gmail.com<mailto:larsonovic AT gmail.com>> wrote:
Tom,

Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from beyond the grave?

I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is.

But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning.

Best,
Mike

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