Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

[Jonathan Potter <jopomojo AT gmail.com>]

Thinking about Doris and Ellen in terms of Kierkegaard's spheres might be helpful.  Doris's abandonment of Tom has the character of an escape into aesthetic damnation, whereas Ellen seems to occupy the sphere of the ethical -- which provides an element of stability that Tom is attracted to even though he, as he occasionally mentions, "has bigger fish to fry" i.e. religious concerns that go beyond Ellen's ethically oriented Presbyterianism.

Yours in e-alientated confraternity,

Jonathan Potter

Spokane WA

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Alex Bell <alexbell25 AT tamu.edu> wrote:

Seth: thanks, i seem to have gotten so bogged down in their similarities that i failed to realize that distinction. How then do you interpret Ellen's religious change in Thanatos Syndrome?

Janet: While i certainly agree with you that love, in its many facets, plays a crucial role in much of Percy's work, Ellen's change in Thanatos Syndrome indicates a looming uncertainty that i think rests within Percy's novels. While this uncertainty is abated by the end of Love in the Ruins, it still persistently lingers. What that uncertainty encompasses is a long discussion in itself.

You're right to point at the humor of the novel, but i would note that Doris' abandonment of Tom, coupled with her subsequent death (all piled upon the death of Samantha) is certainly a grave matter. After all, it is exactly those abandonments that create the major crisis for Tom. Humor can be found in this tragedy, but it is tragic nonetheless.

Joshua: I'm sorry if my question alienated or upset you. Percy wrote in The Moviegoer that the search allows humans to escape despair. That is all i--or anyone on this list--is trying to do.

Alex Bell

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Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 97, Issue 2

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 96, Issue 4 (Joshua)
   2.  Percy-L Digest, Vol 96, Issue 4 (janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com)
   3. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 96, Issue 4 (Charles Lowry)
   4. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 96, Issue 4 (Blaise Gratton)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 15:04:32 -0700
From: Joshua <joshuaemrich AT yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 96, Issue 4
To: "janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com" <janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com>,        "Percy-L:
        Literary and Philosophical Discussion"  <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Cc: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <1B40BABB-81ED-4D97-A8AF-EFBD801C3B37 AT yahoo.com">1B40BABB-81ED-4D97-A8AF-EFBD801C3B37 AT yahoo.com>
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Kiss my ass. You read to much into the "journey" he wants to take the reader on. I'll be smarmy or whatever the fuck I  want on the Internet. Percy would throw up knowing about this ultimate alienating device. I'll never even meet you. We're totally alienated from each other....so kiss off you literary bullshitter. Enjoy your E-alienation in this group of jackasses I'd rather not hear from but can't get rid of.
Have fun circling the earth!

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 10, 2012, at 2:55 PM, "janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com" <janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> No need to be smarmy.
>
> Ruins goes to great lengths to describe the varied beliefs and religious choices of the locals. You meet along the way many goofy characters who justify their specific nuttiness. I love Percy's descriptions of each one. All this is in service to a story which wants the reader to confront his own ideas of religion and good and evil.
>
>  Tom's loss of Doris and the story of how he lost her are examples of what has made him adrift. Though it can be read as sad, there is a joke in the new guy that comes along to steal her away. It is the new age "religion" that attracts Doris or distracts her from the loss of their child. So much in Ruins and in other Percy is mocking people's beliefs and how they come by them. It was the way Percy described her leaving that I remember as written with tongue in cheek. Perhaps my impression is wrong.
>
> Ellen's deliberate lack of religion does not detract from her being just the right one for Tom at the end. Her steadiness is what he needs. And after all the nonsense of the characters and story in Ruins, she represents calm and order. He has found his love in the ruins.
> I always love the way Percy ends his books. Be sure when you read Percy to give yourself permission to laugh. He wants to take you on  a wild ride and bring you home to predictability. Every one of his novels offers some form of love, of caring for someone else, at the end.
> Relax and enjoy the journey.
> Janet Cantor
>
>
> They are 2 different women. And questions can be dumb.
> (Joshua)
>
> > hello all,
> >
> > I'm a English graduate student at Texas A&M, and i have a question that hopefully can be answered (or at least assuaged) with consensus. In _Love in the Ruins_ Tom More repeatedly reminisces on his dead wife Doris. we are told that she was a highly principled yet non-religious woman (i believe he refers to her as an ex-episcopalian who found interest in eastern religion). Ellen Oglethorpe, Dr More's secretary and eventual lover, is the referred to in a similar fashion-- a Presbyterian who has "no use" for God, but who adheres to a strict moral code. How then are we to differentiate these women (if we even are to do so), especially in regards to their effect on More? can More's "choosing" of Ellen be a return to a previous state of life--life before the loss of his child--or is there as subtle difference between Doris and Ellen which i am missing?
> >
> >
> > thank you in advance for any enlightenment
> >
> > Alex Bell
> > --
> > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
> >
> > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> >
> > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email)
> --
> An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
>
> Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>
> Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email)
> --
> An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
>
> Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>
> Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email)
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 15:05:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: "janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com" <janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com>
Subject: [percy-l]  Percy-L Digest, Vol 96, Issue 4
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
        <1349906703.97268.YahooMailClassic AT web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com">1349906703.97268.YahooMailClassic AT web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Lucky University of Arizona.

--- On Wed, 10/10/12, Seth C. Holler <scholler AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: Seth C. Holler <scholler AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 96, Issue 4
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Wednesday, October 10, 2012, 5:57 PM

What an unhelpful first reply... :(
Alex: You might rethink your reading of both women as essentially irreligious. Doris is "ruined" by good clean books celebrating "high places." She isn't irreligious; she loses her religion.



--
Seth C. Holler, Ph.D. candidate
Graduate Associate in Teaching
English Dept.
The University of Arizona



On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 1:18 PM, Joshua <joshuaemrich AT yahoo.com> wrote:


They are 2 different women. And questions can be dumb.





Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 10, 2012, at 12:12 PM, Alex Bell <alexbell25 AT tamu.edu> wrote:



> hello all,

>

> I'm a English graduate student at Texas A&M, and i have a question that hopefully can be answered (or at least assuaged) with consensus. In _Love in the Ruins_ Tom More repeatedly reminisces on his dead wife Doris. we are told that she was a highly principled yet non-religious woman (i believe he refers to her as an ex-episcopalian who found interest in eastern religion). Ellen Oglethorpe, Dr More's secretary and eventual lover, is the referred to in a similar fashion-- a Presbyterian who has "no use" for God, but who adheres to a strict moral code. How then are we to differentiate these women (if we even are to do so), especially in regards to their effect on More? can More's "choosing" of Ellen be a return to a previous state of life--life before the loss of his child--or is there as subtle difference between Doris and Ellen which i am missing?



>

>

> thank you in advance for any enlightenment

>

> Alex Bell

> --

> An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/

>

> Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy

>

> Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email)

--

An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/



Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy



Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email)




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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 18:31:33 -0400
From: Charles Lowry <lowry.charles AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 96, Issue 4
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
        <CADDsyCPHhK5LzVDu2MDKk4Vrmn235kDQoruNbzE61LFui7fvBA AT mail.gmail.com">CADDsyCPHhK5LzVDu2MDKk4Vrmn235kDQoruNbzE61LFui7fvBA AT mail.gmail.com>
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They are 2 different women. And questions can be dumb.

_________________________________________________

Whenever I start to wonder if I did the right thing by not pursuing an
academic career, I always magically seem to find reassurance.  Thanks!
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 17:36:03 -0500
From: Blaise Gratton <blaisegratton AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 96, Issue 4
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Cc: "Percy-L: Literaryand Philosophical Discussion"
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <351FF859-7054-4D9B-94B6-9B2FD3306931 AT gmail.com">351FF859-7054-4D9B-94B6-9B2FD3306931 AT gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ha, I can't seem to get rid of it, either.

On Oct 10, 2012, at 5:04 PM, Joshua <joshuaemrich AT yahoo.com> wrote:

> Kiss my ass. You read to much into the "journey" he wants to take the reader on. I'll be smarmy or whatever the fuck I  want on the Internet. Percy would throw up knowing about this ultimate alienating device. I'll never even meet you. We're totally alienated from each other....so kiss off you literary bullshitter. Enjoy your E-alienation in this group of jackasses I'd rather not hear from but can't get rid of.
> Have fun circling the earth!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 10, 2012, at 2:55 PM, "janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com" <janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> No need to be smarmy.
>>
>> Ruins goes to great lengths to describe the varied beliefs and religious choices of the locals. You meet along the way many goofy characters who justify their specific nuttiness. I love Percy's descriptions of each one. All this is in service to a story which wants the reader to confront his own ideas of religion and good and evil.
>>
>>  Tom's loss of Doris and the story of how he lost her are examples of what has made him adrift. Though it can be read as sad, there is a joke in the new guy that comes along to steal her away. It is the new age "religion" that attracts Doris or distracts her from the loss of their child. So much in Ruins and in other Percy is mocking people's beliefs and how they come by them. It was the way Percy described her leaving that I remember as written with tongue in cheek. Perhaps my impression is wrong.
>>
>> Ellen's deliberate lack of religion does not detract from her being just the right one for Tom at the end. Her steadiness is what he needs. And after all the nonsense of the characters and story in Ruins, she represents calm and order. He has found his love in the ruins.
>> I always love the way Percy ends his books. Be sure when you read Percy to give yourself permission to laugh. He wants to take you on  a wild ride and bring you home to predictability. Every one of his novels offers some form of love, of caring for someone else, at the end.
>> Relax and enjoy the journey.
>> Janet Cantor
>>
>>
>> They are 2 different women. And questions can be dumb.
>> (Joshua)
>>
>> > hello all,
>> >
>> > I'm a English graduate student at Texas A&M, and i have a question that hopefully can be answered (or at least assuaged) with consensus. In _Love in the Ruins_ Tom More repeatedly reminisces on his dead wife Doris. we are told that she was a highly principled yet non-religious woman (i believe he refers to her as an ex-episcopalian who found interest in eastern religion). Ellen Oglethorpe, Dr More's secretary and eventual lover, is the referred to in a similar fashion-- a Presbyterian who has "no use" for God, but who adheres to a strict moral code. How then are we to differentiate these women (if we even are to do so), especially in regards to their effect on More? can More's "choosing" of Ellen be a return to a previous state of life--life before the loss of his child--or is there as subtle difference between Doris and Ellen which i am missing?
>> >
>> >
>> > thank you in advance for any enlightenment
>> >
>> > Alex Bell
>> > --
>> > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
>> >
>> > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>> >
>> > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email)
>> --
>> An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
>>
>> Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>>
>> Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email)
>> --
>> An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
>>
>> Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>>
>> Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email)
> --
> An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
>
> Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>
> Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email)
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