pcplantdb

["Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>]

-------- Original Message --------
Subject:        [permaculture] RE: mapping
Date:   Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:42:15 -0700
From:   tim <timb@asis.com>
Reply-To:       permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
To:     <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>



I was hesitant to start rambling about the software that I use because I do
not want to encourage Permaculturists to squander the spring planting season
in front of a computer.  That being said I have done a lot of thinking about
this issue.  

There are three genres of software that I use; Geographic Information
Systems (GIS), Computer Aided Design (CAD), and simple Graphic Design (GD)
software. Each caters to a different kind of end product. I absolutely
concur with Micheal Snows point that the simplest solution is often best.  

I am pretty week on the CAD front.  It is great for architecture, and
engineered objects, etc.  Others can speak to its uses.  I use  

GIS techniques can be an incredible resource for large organizations and
complicated geospatial record keeping.  To all of the permaculturists who
have gone Linux and don't look back to the Windows world should check out
GRASS, one of the largest open source projects there is.  It is also a
highly innovative GIS platform. I have not yet made the jump.  This is more
because I have not committed to Linux yet. For people who are in the
commercial software market ArcINFO or ArcView is pretty much industry
standard.  

I have one major caveat about GIS being widely deployed by the permaculture
community. This is really a revolutionary time for Cartography and
geoinformatics however when things get really complicated, arbitrary
decisions about the nature of map objects are decided by the technocrats
that build and maintain the medium instead of end users or subject experts.
Nine out of ten times choices will be made in favor of computational
elegance over elegant description of process.  Since I started getting
involved in GIS, I have become intensely interested in the art history of
landscape painting and photography.  I think that permacultures real
interests lie in developing graphical communication skills such as those
explored by Edward Tufte.  Thus I use a lot of Graphic Design software.  

On the surveying front I have used EDM total stations before and they are
indeed remarkable tools. They are also extremely delicate precision
instruments that cost tens of thousands of dollars.  In the financial/labor
universe I live in, a tool like that should be used by a pair of highly
trained specialists and will probably represent the majority of the working
capital in their careers.  

Hiring a survey team is entirely appropriate for major civil engineering and
earth work projects however it may be more economical to hire a
photogrammetrist.  This is especially true for Forestry applications because
you can get remarkable forest inventory data using stereo pairs of air
photos.  

Personally I use three survey systems that are scaled to my needs.  Most of
all I use a Brunton compass and a survey tape.  This is the same design that
prospectors have used in North America since the 1890's.  It is a complete
transit system that fits in a 2 inches by 2 inches by 1 inch instrument.  It
is said to be precise to .5 degrees.  

For more precise surveys, I borrow a level transit.  I have been looking at
one of these that only costs $400US new!!!!  This seems like an incredible
bargain to me.  If you are getting one of these you should make sure to get
one that has a telescope with a high, center, and low reading.  Basically
you can measure distance from the high and low readings as well as relative
elevation. Unfortunately you need two people.  

Since I have to work by myself often I borrow a spinning laser level, a
compass and a tape.  I choose appropriate transects and record spot
elevations.  

Tim Bailey







Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:11:26 -0500
From: "michael snow" <msnow@mountainschool.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture]mapping
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <00bc01c537fa$da155530$4a00a8c0@ZOO.MOUNTAINSCHOOL.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

I did a fair amount of GIS work in college, even giving a serviceble lesson
during the mapping section of the pdc course I took.  The concept of GIS
(layers of information, manipulation of those layers and the associated
database) is great, and seems to make it a great tool for site designers.
Maybe this is what Tim uses.  Perhaps a Pc-minded GISer could script a
program more suited, or more simple, for this kind of design system.  Sounds
like a great independent project, master's thesis, perhaps even PhD thesis.

Then again, low-tech does have it's advantages.  I remember a work
assignment a professor did in Nicaragua.  He was working
with indigenous folks to map their traditional places, to be better able to
work with each other and more importantly the government, who
wanted as much of their land as possible.  Instead of taking the most
hi-tech stuff available, he took with him what he thought would work best -
some imprecise equipment that was either cheap or old.  This way, the
lines each individual and group drew were often vague, blurred,
overlapping.  So to get anywhere, the stakeholders had to sit down,
communicate, and work details out with each other.

Pretty nifty reminder that best equipment isn't always most hi-tech.

Mike Snow

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <FranksFarm@aol.com>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture]mapping


> Good day,
>
> Nice post Tim:)
>
> I sure do agree with much of what you wrote in your last post.
>
> <<In order to avoid the same sad fate that awaits all but the most hardy
> utopian movements, I try to implement designs that are modular, compact,
> maintain a high level of flexibility, and can achieve full design function
> within an achievable budget of time, money, water, etc. Instead of taking
> the role of the great architect expressing sublime ideals in space I think
> that permaculture is encouraging us to be humble groundskeepers slowly but
> persistently improving the habitat by finding simple, novel solutions.
> Stewart Brands book How Buildings Learn is a really remarkable argument
for
> integrating the design process into the maintenance. Designers that get
too
> far ahead of the implementation are short circuiting evolution and
feedback
> loops.>>
>
> I'm hoping that you will share some of your expertise on Mapping with
those
> of us on the list who are unfamiliar or challenged by the techniques.
>
> I'm especially interest in how you use your computer to do so.
>
> Hopefully, others will join in and we can make this Topic a future
resource
> for all. Why do we seem to reinvent the wheel all the time? Better to
learn
> from the experiences of others, and try to find ways too go forward, and
improve.
> Thanks, again. Look forward to your reply. Frank
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 18:03:54 +1000
From: "darren" <darren@permaculture.biz>
Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture GIS/CAD
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20050403080354.22876.qmail@silenus.impulse.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed

Hello People, 

I trust that this greets you and all well. 

I have used MapInfo Professional (GIS) and Microsoft Excel for all of my 
design work (mostly broadacre) for about 10 years now. These two products 
link together (OCE) and make the process of design very quick and easy. On 
most of the PDC's I have taught on I have delivered a module on the subject 
and how I apply the technology. 

As with any mapping the accuracy of the detail and ultimately the output are

limited by the quality of the input data. Some maps on which I have based my

plans on have been horrendously inaccurate, one more recently here in Viet 
Nam (an US Army Engineering Corp Map no less) had a creek going through a 
hill that didn't exist. Message here is to ground-truth your base map data 
to outwit the inevitable inaccuracies. 

In response to this situation back in about 1998 I in most cases stopped 
using government topographic maps for detail plan development and hired a 
surveyor (with an Electronic Distance Module or EDM or Total Station) who 
was able to generate a sub-mm accurate plan of the property. Main reason for

this was that my contracting business was haemorraging as a result of 
innacurate base maps that were creating really innacurate Bill's of 
Quantities. I must have missed that part in my PDC's....Had to learn the 
hard way... 

This is a technology available in many countries and is the way to go if you

want a highly accurate base map. In most cases the contours will be at 0.5m 
intervals and all property features are "picked up". Using this detail we 
then used a program called Civil CAD to design all of the earthworks - again

a highly accurate procedure - whereby we could match as closely as possible 
cut and fill volumes: obtaining the optimal storage ratio of a site. 

I have also trialled AutoCAD and AutoCAD Land Desktop and whilst they are 
fantastically capable are way over the top and generally great for wasting 
time on the anal retention of unnecessary detail where you are placing trees

etc. Better to cut to the chase and save the detail for the on ground works.

However if tree symmetry is your bent (as it has been unfortunately for many

of my clients) then this type of design software is extraordinarily useful -

unless you want to go batty marking out symmetrical layouts in the field. 
Once you design it on the screen then the design data gets put back into the

Total Station memory and out goes the surveyor and the instrument tells you 
where the trees should be placed. We even got to the stage where we could 
make the tree's planted in parallel keyline contour offset rows all line up 
and look really pretty - of course the trees couldn't give a, but the client

is all warm and cuddly. 

Maybe a chance of getting over to the US sometime this year so if I do I'll 
have to slip into a PDC somewhere and help out if wanted with the PC/GIS 
module mentioned. 

Good Luck and Tam Biet from here in hot (37 degree celcius) and humid Dong 
Xoai (100km north west of HCMC/Saigon - south central highlands of Viet Nam)

- I'll get back to welding up some FC tank forms for the locals here -
great 
day for it - not!! 




Cheers, 

Yours and Growing, 

Darren J. Doherty 

Integrated Consultant/Lecturer
M&M's/Mars Inc., ACDI/VOCA
Sustainable Cacao Agroforestry Systems (SCAS) Project, 

Forest Science Institute of Vietnam (FSIV) Research Farm, Huong-lo 312, 
Nghia Trung Commune, Bu Dang District, Binh Phuoc Province,
Socialist Republic of Vietnam 

m. +61 (0) 418 254 605 (Australia)
m. +84 (0) 919 371 628 (Viet Nam)
e. darren@permaculture.biz
w. www.permaculture.biz 

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