pcplantdb

[Stephanie Gerson <sgerson@stanfordalumni.org>]

hello again,

Thank you Chad and John for responding.  I have a few comments for you 
both, but pertinent to all:

Chad,
“As for a backend, one of the core design goals I had in mind when I
wrote Eden was extensibility…I think the permaculture community needs a 
better than a wiki wiki”

So, how do you think we can integrate this Guild Design Application with 
Eden?  Can Eden itself be extended to include this application?  And how 
would it allow for a “better than a wiki wiki”?  By allowing users to 
input information, relationships, natural plant communities, etc. (more 
about this below)?


John,
“It does include some (hopefully) programmer-friendly ways and means to 
get information out and put information in.”

I thought this was part of the initial plan—allowing users to input 
information into the database, because this is the primary way that the 
database will grow.  Otherwise, we will have to constantly be 
researching/adding information, and the beauty of this collective 
database is that it is sustained and nurtured by its constituents, n’est 
ce pas?  Which is why I see the database as somewhat of a guild-design 
wiki, involving a user-friendly way to input information.  What do you 
think?


“What do you consider to be the initially proposed project?”

I have attached the grant proposal.  I would really appreciate it if 
everyone read this, as a refresher of (at least) our initial goals.  And 
please respond with questions, criticisms, suggestions.

 
“If there's money to pay me I am more available than if not (because if 
not I have to be doing something else with my time for livelihood).”

I think we all feel the same way, but I am willing to dedicate time to 
this project nevertheless.  Please review the budget section of the 
proposal.  I don’t see this project as a way to make money, I see it as 
an exciting opportunity to create something valuable for the Permaculture 
community.


“Has someone already stepped forward to handle and host source control 
if/when some design and coding starts in earnest?”

I presumed, from what we had discussed previously, that this was 
Richard’s responsibility.  Richard?  Am I incorrect?  (And that you, 
John, were going to be the 'user-tester').  Are all of you who are 
described in the team bios still committed to this project?


Once again, I ask all of you interested in being involved to please re-
read the proposal and respond.

Thank you

                 sincerely,
                    *Stephanie

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Today's Topics:

   1. So... (Stephanie Gerson)
   2. Re: So... (Chad Knepp)
   3. Re: Re: So... (John Schinnerer)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 14:28:54 -0800
From: Stephanie Gerson <sgerson@stanfordalumni.org>
Subject: [pcplantdb] So...
To: <pcplantdb@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <682icawC35136S07.1078180134@uwdvg007.cms.usa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

howdy all,

Thank you John for responding to my post.  You wrote:

"That would be a great front end, and as I've said before we can put any 
front ends we want on it - some like visual graphs, some like tables and 
charts, whatever.  There has to be a viable back end or discussing front 
ends is a waste of bandwidth, especially since any front end is 
possible."

So I have a question for everyone:

Is it possible to create the backend for the application we have been 
describing - one that allows users to create guilds/search for suitable 
plants for a guild by using plant functionality (nitrogen-fixer, etc.) 
and then display this information in a web-like interface?  And allow 
users to 'click' on the relationship between two components (two plants, 
for example) to learn more about the relationship/determine 
compatibility?  I believe it can be done, but I am also not expert in 
programming...

Because, wonderful news, we were accepted into the final round of the 
grant process with the Threshold Foundation.  But it seems we are re-
questioning the proposed project - are people still comitted to pursuing 
this?  And if so, are there any changes we would make to the initially 
proposed project?

Just want to hear from you all.

gracias
*Stephanie

 


+++++++++++++++
Stephanie Gerson
sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
(h) 505.758.2806
(c) 415.871.5683


____________________________________________________________________
   



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:00:12 -0600
From: Chad Knepp <pyg@galatea.org>
Subject: [pcplantdb] Re: So...
To: pcplantdb@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <16451.56476.432049.331263@elly.galatea.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Stephanie,

Thanks for switching to iso-8859-1, my [rather obscure] email client
is about a year out from being fully unicode capable.

Stephanie Gerson writes:
 > <snip>
 > So I have a question for everyone:
 > 
 > Is it possible to create the backend for the application we have been 
 > describing - one that allows users to create guilds/search for 
suitable 
 > plants for a guild by using plant functionality (nitrogen-fixer, etc.) 
 > and then display this information in a web-like interface?  And allow 
 > users to 'click' on the relationship between two components (two 
plants, 
 > for example) to learn more about the relationship/determine 
 > compatibility?  I believe it can be done, but I am also not expert in 
 > programming...

The programing isn't the hard part.  The hard part is understanding
and documenting those relationships.  The programing part of Eden and
PFAF is nothing compared to the data assimilated by Ken Fern.

As for a backend, one of the core design goals I had in mind when I
wrote Eden was extensibility.  I even wrote two different front ends
during the process to help enforce this goal.  Just take a look at
it...

 > Because, wonderful news, we were accepted into the final round of
 > the grant process with the Threshold Foundation.  But it seems we
 > are re- questioning the proposed project - are people still
 > comitted to pursuing this?  And if so, are there any changes we
 > would make to the initially proposed project?

My personal goals are more or less articulated on galatea.org/eden.  I
think the permaculture community needs a better than a wiki
*wiki*... or some kind of content and search engine combination that
contain the essential knowledge of about 50 good permaculture books
with the ability to find what your looking for almost instantly.


-- 
Chad Knepp
perl -e 'print pack"H*","7079674067616c617465612e6f72670a"'


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:55:13 -0800 (PST)
From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net>
Subject: Re: [pcplantdb] Re: So...
To: pcplantdb@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
        <33013.64.40.54.253.1078210513.squirrel@www.eco-living.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

Aloha,

> The programing isn't the hard part.  The hard part is understanding
> and documenting those relationships.  The programing part of Eden and
> PFAF is nothing compared to the data assimilated by Ken Fern.

Ditto, more or less - though designing what to program, in terms of the 
more
complex proposals heard here, will not be trivial IMO.

I missed something re the Ken Fern reference...please enlighten me about 
him...?

Also, to Stephanie's question, the short answer is yes.  To hopefully 
clarify
in mostly plain English the way this might be put together:

You can cerainly have the graph-based front end (if someone steps forward 
to
develop it), and others as well, but there has to be something behind 
them.

The 'back end' is the database itself and the ways and means to access it 
at
the programming level.  It does *not* include any particular 'user-
friendly'
or 'end-user' interface of any kind.  It does include some (hopefully)
programmer-friendly ways and means to get information out and put 
information
in.  In geek-speak, these ways and means are usually called an 
application
programming interface (API).  So a back end typically consists of the 
actual
database itself and an API that 'front end' programmers can use to talk 
with
that database.

The 'front end' is what the user sees when they go to some web site that
provides access to the back end.  Programmers create a 'front end' using 
some
typically visually oriented model (windows, forms, icons, buttons, mouse
point-and-click, graphical representations and so on) to help an end user 
do
what they want with the back end - such as ask for and receive 
information.

Good software design means that the back end does not assume or enforce a
particular front end. A front end developer looks at the ways and means
provided by the API for the back end and uses them to essentially 
translate
between the end users' actions, made via some graphical user interface, 
and
the database itself.

One person or group could write a typical sort of web-form-based user
interface front end for searching the database.  Another could write the
dynamic-graph sort of user interface that you favor for searching the
database.

One back end - many possible front ends.  Front ends need back end, 
including
well-formed and reasonably stable API, to be built at all.

Hope this helps to explain why IMO discussing front ends without having a 
back
end well under way is not a good use of our bandwidth.

> Because, wonderful news, we were accepted into the final round of
> the grant process with the Threshold Foundation.  But it seems we
> are re- questioning the proposed project - are people still
> comitted to pursuing this?  And if so, are there any changes we
> would make to the initially proposed project?

That's cool.
What do you consider to be the initially proposed project?
If there's money to pay me I am more available than if not (because if 
not I
have to be doing something else with my time for livelihood).
I would be able to start setting up a test/QA infrastructure, process and 
bug
DB (bugzilla or similar open-source issue tracking system).

Has someone already stepped forward to handle and host source control if/
when
some design and coding starts in earnest?

cheers,
John S.




John Schinnerer - MA, Whole Systems Design
------------------------------------------
- Eco-Living -
Design & Technology Services
People - Place - Learning - Integration
john@eco-living.net
http://eco-living.net


------------------------------

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End of pcplantdb Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1
****************************************




+++++++++++++++
Stephanie Gerson
sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
(h) 505.758.2806
(c) 415.871.5683


____________________________________________________________________

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