pcplantdb

[Stephanie Gerson <sgerson@stanfordalumni.org>]

what a discussion!  

John, your wish of reviving the db discussion was definitely granted :)

I definitely agree with everything that has been said, and OF COURSE I 
would Love to collaborate with what already exists.  Definitely not 
looking to re-invent the wheel, especially when Rich and PFAF have 
already designed such a fine one.

Just had an idea, didn't know what was out there, so decided to present 
it...and the conversation it (re)stimulated is such a wonderful surprise!  
And I feel genuinely lucky to be discussing this idea with such dedicated 
permies.

To let you all know, I am not set on anything- not even Thinkmap.  I was 
just pretty amazed at its visual interface, and ability to represent 
information in a web-like format.  Like I said before, this project is 
only worth as much as its support from the Permaculture community-- 
accordingly, the most solid project will be the one that the majority of 
us can unite on!  This project everyONE's, so let's collaborate.  Instead 
of going in different directions, let's discuss what our goals are, and 
then choose the appropriate technology which can fullfill it. 

Can I make a suggestion (and give us a bit of homework)?  Can we all 
answer these 4 questions:

1.  What would be want the ultimate plant/guild database to be able to 
acheive?  brainstorm *goals*, forget tech format for now.  get specific 
(i.e. I want to be able to insert x,y,z criteria and design a medicinal 
guild for my local region...)  Also specify fee (free or paid), format 
(web or cd rom)-- how this tool is accessed.

2.  What characteristics of current plant/guild databases can serve as a 
model- features we admire, and would we want to include in a 'next level' 
project?

3.  What are current plant/guild databases lacking, that we would aspire 
to include in a 'next level' project?

4.  only AFTER answering the first 3, brainstorm tech formats/platforms 
that could acheive this end and how.

I think if we are all truly interested in developing this, it would be 
fruitful to answer these questions.  We might make unintended 
discoveries.  I know for myself, this week is super busy, but I will try 
to tackle them over the weekend.  I just feel like instead of criticizing 
Thinkmap or PFAF or anything else for not being able to do this or that, 
we must remind ourselves of what our OVERALL INTENTIONS are, and only 
then we can judge the different formats appropriately, ne c'est pas?

And I have a few specific responses to comments that you made- 
specifically Rich, Chad, and John.  I'LL RESPOND IN CAPS, NOT YELLING 
JUST WANT TO DISTINGUISH MY WRITING:

If I understand your project, you will be raising funds to pay a 
commercial development company to develop a product based on their own 
proprietary platform.  If you will actually own all of the end product of 
that development, you could indeed make it freely available to those with 
adequate techological means, assuming you have legal rights to distribute 
their runtime engine or equivalent for free. Otherwise not - and any 
future enhancements, etc. will I assume depend on raising more money for 
that work to be done by the commercial developer using their proprietary 
platform. If the company goes out of business or gets bought up (or drops 
the product), all bets are off as to the future of such an "investment."

SUPER GREAT POINTS.  I (WE) WILL, IN FACT, OWN THE APPLICATION THAT IS 
CREATED- AND THEREFORE WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE IT FREELY AVAILABLE TO ANYONE 
WITH INTERNET (IT WILL BE EMBEDDED IN A WEB PAGE).  BUT, I AM GOING TO 
DISCUSS THESE CONCERNS WITH THE FELLOW I'VE BEEN TALKING WITH AT 
THINKMAP-- WHO I ACTUALLY WENT TO SCHOOL WITH, AND WE KNOW MANY PEOPLE IN 
COMMON, SO HE IS MY BUDDY 

As for the visual aspects, I took a look at the online visual thesaurus. 
Nice eye candy. I don't find their interface particularly intuitive 
though - or really all that effective compared to text. 

DID YOU USE THEIR CLASSIC VERSION OR THEIR NEWER VERSION?  PERSONALLY I 
FIND THEIR CLASSIC VERSION MUCH EASIER TO USE.  AND REMEMBER- THINKMAP IS 
A SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT APP (BACKEND), AND YOU ARE DISCUSSING THE *VISUAL* 
INTERFACE (FRONT END).  IF YOU HAVE PROBS WITH THE INTERFACE, IT CAN 
DEFINITELY BE MODIFIED!  THAT IS WHY DEFINING OUR GOALS (HOMEWORK 
QUESTION #1) IS SO CRUCIAL-- YOU SAY DON'T FIND THE INTERFACE EFFECTIVE, 
BUT EFFECTIVE FOR WHAT??  WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE?  I WOULD ALSO 
WANT TO MAKE MANY CHANGES TO THE INTERFACE (WHICH OF COURSE WE COULD), I 
WILL DELVE INTO WHEN I DO MY HOMEWORK....

In a more immediately relevant vein, someone(s) somewhere, decided what
default visual "weights" and relationships to give various synonyms, etc. 
for a chosen word - which is quite different than looking them up in a 
text-based format, where each individual implicitly and/or explicitly 
determines their preferences and priorities. IMO this is a potential case 
of "too much information." There is no absolute basis for indicating that 
this synonym is "more important" than that one - context is everything (a 
fundamental design principle).

THAT IS, UNLESS YOU INCLUDE SPECIFIC PREFERENCES (I.E., NATIVE TO YOUR 
LOCAL REGION, MEDICINAL PLANTS, POLLINATORS, ETC.)--THERE ARE MANY 
CRITERIA YOU COULD ENTER, LIKE WHEN YOU DO A BOOLEAN SEARCH.

So for example if guild DB users can't adjust guild element "weights" to 
suit their contexts, the DB usefulness is limited (skewed) by the default 
choices made, which may be inappropriate across diverse bioregions, 
climate zones, microclimates and so on. If users can adjust these, the 
complexity required multiplies yet again (and the "who's in charge of 
that anyhow?" question arises yet again... ;-).

IF USERS DID NOT ENTER PREFERENCES, THE DEFAULT WOULD PROBABLY BE TRIED-
AND-TESTED GUILD COMBINATIONS FOR A SPECIFIC BIO-REGION.  I THINK 
BIOREGION/CLIMATE ZONE/MICROCLIMATE IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT 
CHARACTERISTIC OF THIS GUILD DESIGN TOOL.  SO, IF NOTHING ELSE, YOU WOULD 
END UP WITH SOMETHING TAILORED TO YOUR LOCAL ENVIRONMENT.  AND THE MORE 
INFORMATION IN THE DATABASE, THE MORE REFINED THE OUTCOME OF A SEARCH 
WILL BE.  AS WITH THE MORE INFORMATION ENTERED, THE MORE REFINED THE 
OUTCOME WOULD BE.

This is rather like asking the waiter if the food at his restaurant is 
good when he comes to take your order.

ACTUALLY, I WAS TALKING TO HIM MORE AS A FRIEND THAN AS A CLIENT WHEN I 
FIRST THOUGHT OF THE IDEA- BECAUSE WE WENT TO SCHOOL TOGETHER.  HE IS 
YOUNG LIKE ME AND I DON'T THINK HE IS AN EVIL ENTREPRENEUR JUST TRYING TO 
GET BUSINESS.  DON'T BE SO CYNICAL :)

I'd rather see whatever money could be generated for something like this
circulate within the Permaculture community and fund an open-source
community-developed database/resource, including functional support for 
those with limited technological means. Perhaps TouchGraph is mature 
enough to make a start with (and contribute to further TouchGraph 
development as a reciprocal benefit. That seems more permaculturish to me 
than paying for a sealed package.

SOUNDS GREAT TO ME!  LET'S DO IT.

I've also been thinking of the economics of it all. Programs
like this seem to need continuous mantanace input. I always say
it took me 1 week to put the pfaf site together and 6 years to
maintain it. There is also need of some sort of editorial input
as info is always being added. Maintance also get harder if the
project has been done by a third party.

Is it going to me a web only thing, or a cd-rom thing? Different
markets and different economics.

But at the end of the day if you can get the money go for it!

Rich

THANKS, RICH.  YES I WOULD BE WILLING TO BE THE MODERATOR FOR A FEW 
YEARS.  I AM YOUNG, INSPIRED, AND WITHOUT TOO MANY ATTACHMENTS (NO KIDS 
OR SERIOUS CAREER COMITTMENTS...YET)  SO I WOULD DEFINITELY BE WILLING TO 
DEDICATE TIME TO THIS FOR A WHILE.  AND YES IT WOULD BE WEB-BASED.

CHAD WROTE:
I think I am the person with the skill and motivation to do it; all I 
need is cold hard cash. If I were funded for 300 hours @ $15/hr (I'm 
worth $50/hr) in 2-4 months I could do some amazing things, with the 
permaculture community as the most direct beneficiary.

WHOA THERE CHAD.  FORGIVE ME FOR GETTING A BIT SAD WHEN I READ THIS.  I'M 
CERTAIN YOU COULD DO SOME AMAZING THINGS ON YOUR OWN, BUT LET'S WORK 
TOGETHER, NO? 

PHEWWWF, THAT'S IT FOR NOW.
BUSY BUSY WEEK, BUT I'LL GET TO MY HOMEWORK OVER THE WEEKEND (AND I HOPE 
SOMEONE OUT THERE DOES TOO)

JUST TO RE-ITERATE, REALLY GLAD TO BE DISCUSSING WITH YOU ALL, AND WOULD 
LOVE TO POOL OUR IDEAS TOGETHER AND APPROACH THIS COLLEVTIVELY.

LET'S *BE* THE GUILD THAT WE ARE TRYING TO BUILD.

PEACE
*S


"John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:

Aloha,

> I've also been thinking of the economics of it all. Programs
> like this seem to need continuous mantanace input. I always say
> it took me 1 week to put the pfaf site together and 6 years to
> maintain it.

I know what you mean... :-/

> There is also need of some sort of editorial input
> as info is always being added.

I think this is really the crux of the project - more so than the actual
development of a platform for the information.

That is, once there's a functional repository for information, how does
information get added, by whom, and how is it validated?

> Maintance also get harder if the
> project has been done by a third party.

Or is impossible (for the DB engine that is), if the source is 
proprietary.

> Is it going to me a web only thing, or a cd-rom thing? Different
> markets and different economics.

I'm still assuming an open license product is being proposed, so
profit-oriented marketing doesn't enter into it.  That doesn't mean money
can't be solicited/found and spent creating it though.

I'm also assuming a web app, since CDs will be out of date as soon as 
they're
burned if it's a dynamic DB, and would require additional development
time/effort as well.

> p.s. beware of developers. Our favorite hobby is to argue whether
> C/C++/Java/C#/php/xml/sql/wiki is better.

Python and Zope, obviously.

;-) ;-)


John Schinnerer - MA, Whole Systems Design
------------------------------------------
- Eco-Living -
Cultural & Ecological Designing
People - Place - Learning - Integration
john@eco-living.net
http://eco-living.net
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+++++++++++++++
Stephanie Gerson
sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
415.871.5683


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