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- From: Kevin Moore <aleguy33@yahoo.com>
- To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
- Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:58:47 -0700 (PDT)
A very interesting perspective. Organic vs. chemical gardening. I must say that I am neither. Especially since the advent of the USDA's National Organic Program which has destroyed much that was good about organic certification to begin with. I consider myself an advocate of natural gardening as opposed to organic. While I still occaisionally use sprays such as seaweed extract or dilute milk for immediate problems. I find I resort to them less and less. I take a permaculture approach of trying to design a balanced ecosystem where there is something that eats every pest. I prefer to call this natural gardening to disociate it from the industrial agriculture that calls itself organic. Even borers have predators and diseases. The trick is to maintain a balance so that some damage to trees is
acceptable as long as the pests don't get out of hand and start doing enough damage to actually hurt the trees. By directing the location of various plants and water sources in relation to your trees, it is possible to achieve this balance, though I will be the first to admit that having trees and other plants that are naturally resistant to various pathogens is always a good foundation to start off with.
I know this probably doesn't help your research, but there are an increasing number of people who are going "beyond organic."
Kevin z9 Louisiana.
I know this probably doesn't help your research, but there are an increasing number of people who are going "beyond organic."
Kevin z9 Louisiana.
From: Kieran &/or Donna <holycow@frontiernet.net>
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:13:51 AM
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
Someone, I think it was Fluffy or maybe Alan who
said organic people are "unscientific". That's not entirely
true. Most of us are simply naive idealists who really believe that God or
Nature is benign and nice. We have read that if we just improve our
soil enough, that the bugs and disease will go away.
That generally seems to hold true for truck crops. I haven't seen a
bean beetle in years. Fruit trees seem much harder to deal
with. The borer for every species thing doesn't help.
The curculio seem to have developed the perfect system, simply ruin all the
fruit for any other creature but let a few fruits hang on long enough to
make a few seeds for the trees to reproduce. Codling moths aren't
nearly as efficient. Someone asked me at work about what
was eating the leaves on various species of veggies in her first ever
garden. Two of us were interrogating her, as she was obviously
describing rabbit or deer damage. the same bug does not attack all those
species, and each one does it's own very specific thing. The older
men in the family had simply gone out and dusted Sevin to deal with all those
other pests. Here our worlds divide. I adore bugs, except for the
ones I hate with a passion. I could never spray my garden with an
insecticide, it would kill too many of my miniature wildlife. ( I
don't have to go on safari to Africa or even use binoculars to
observe amazing creatures and great drama. Try watching one of those
special spider wasps in action. You know, the blackish ones with the
orange curly antennae. Know what they use those antennae
for? They feel the spider very carefully with them to find the right
spot to sting. It's rather obscene to watch, esp as I am so fond of
wolf spiders. ) I know a great deal about all kinds of bugs,
including those that have no economic impact on me. Tennessee oldtimers
don't know these things, they kill everything with Sevin. That is
scientific? I get a big kick out of explaining to oldtimers about
why the blister beetles they hate so much are only a mixed curse, because their
young feed on grasshopper eggs. Once we got banties running loose
eating grasshoppers, the blister beetles became rare.
Sevin is one of the 4 food
groups in Tennessee. Never mind that it is
a neurotoxin that mammals can break down in their livers because they have an
enzyme that insects don't have. Never mind that this enzyme can be used up
by repeated exposure or that certain medications can use it up. Never mind
the reports in Organic Gardening, that magazine for superstitious organic
gardeners about how Sevin can last 40 days in the garden in certain
conditions. Never mind the final conclusion in the book A PLAGUE OF
FROGS that it was the breakdown product of a pesticide that interfered with
the thyroid function in the developing frogs and caused the limb
deformities. The researchers working with the pesticide itself did not get
these results, giving the impression that it would not affect frogs. Yes,
there is also some kind of amphibian infection running around that can do this,
but the Canadian researcher said flatly that in his years of sampling, that only
farm ponds with lots of pesticides produced deformities. Is it truly
scientific to assume that chemicals don't break down into intermediate products
out in Nature? Some of us organic nuts are now bitter and
twisted, having realised that the world consists mostly of creatures saying
gimme. We watch longingly the simple lives of chemical
users, but are still only too aware that the miracle of modern
chemistry is biting America's backside in the rates of cancer
and other health problems.
This is not intended as an
attack on anyone on this group, I am merely addressing the great divide in
Nafex. Never mind politics, we don't go to Nafex meetings and then
immediately try to figure out whether we are talking to a Dem or Rep, we want to
know if we are talking with someone who grows resistant stuff or who grows the
best of everything and sprays. Both groups start out naive, but one trusts
the chemical companies and sprays, the other puts their faith in Nature and
doesn't spray. Both get rewards, but often the organic bunch have to do a
whole lot more learning first. Personally, I would love to see the concept
of IPM agriculture blossom. I would love to be able to buy IPM produce in
my local grocery. But somehow the concept has never gotten major attention
among consumers and publications to consumers. IPM is definitely the most
scientific form of agriculture in my opinion. It is based on the
intersection of 3 realities, economic reality, and the knowlege of biology and
chemistry.
I suppose this is the foundation
for an article I have long wanted to write for Pomona but never could quite
figure out how to approach. The divide in Nafex between the organic and
the chemical people is quite deep. People have their minds as made up
already as they did in the last election. I soon discovered last year that
I could only discuss politics with like minded people, that there were no
discussions between sides, only arguments. I think the divide is addressed
by the Meyers-Briggs, Kiersey-Bates personality tests. The division is
between the 25% of the population who see the forest, and the 75% who see the
trees. Between the big picture and the details. The big
picture people think the detail people are idiots because they can't grasp the
implications of what they do. The detail people think the big picture
people are idiots because they are vague. For the extremes of either type,
there is sudden glazing over of the eyes when forced to converse with someone of
the other brain type. I have watched it happen, I have experienced it
myself. My husband once endured an excruciating conversation
between a brother and BIL of mine, 15 full minutes regarding a scratch on a car
and what to do about it. Our attitude is, the car is transportation, a
scratch means nothing to that purpose. To detail people, a scratch is a
very real thing.
For the purposes of this
discussion, ask yourself which type you are, and would you please report in
which type you are and whether you think organic gardening is stupid and
chemicals are fine. Remember there are people in the middle, more
versatile people than the ones at the ends of the spectrum. If you are in
the middle, what is your opinion re chemicals, in 25 words or less?
Thank you. Any input regarding an article for Pomona on this subject would
be very much appreciated. A group effort will produce a better balanced
article. Some details, some theory, something for
everyone. Donna
-
[NAFEX] sandy soil and sugary fruit,
Alan Haigh, 06/12/2009
- Re: [NAFEX] no summer for the North?, Kieran &/or Donna, 06/12/2009
- Re: [NAFEX] sandy soil and sugary fruit, Kieran &/or Donna, 06/12/2009
-
Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic,
Kieran &/or Donna, 06/12/2009
- Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic, Mark Angermayer, 06/12/2009
- Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic, Stephen Sadler, 06/12/2009
- Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic, Kevin Moore, 06/14/2009
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