North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

["Dave Griffin" <griffingardens@earthlink.net>]

Warning: Short political response with implications to human behavior and
remotely to plum breeding. (What isn't political these days?)

Steve,
  Well reasoned and well said.
  When discussion is taken as advocacy, to be quashed as blasphemy under
the guise of a high moral cause - patriotism, religion, capitalism, a
certain political point of view...discussion ceases to exist and there is a
danger that we will all become isolated into stagnant adversarial
positions. "Oh gosh, I forgot--they're already doing this."
  If the Soviet system was so completely bad why is it that the catalogs
are overflowing with hardy Russian plums for the home (non-commercial)
grower to go with Toka, introduced by N.E. Hansen 1911, and a lot of firm
fleshed tasteless plums that can't be grown outside of the established
commercial plum growing regions? Who in the public institutions that my
taxes support is breeding a plum that I can grow? I am waiting while
'Lydecker' from UW River Falls grinds through the patent process and the
nursery that owns the propagation rights does further very limited testing
and tries to decide if they can make any money with a new plum release that
doesn't already have instant name recognition. 

Dave
Central MN 
zone 4a


> [Original Message]
> From: loneroc <loneroc@mwt.net>
> To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: 2/16/06 6:03:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Moral and Legal Patent Quandries (Warning:
politicaldiatribe--delete if not interested; -)
>
> Jerry,
>
> First, Mike Levine brings up some of my concerns about the plant patent
> system, as it stands, very well.  I probably wouldn't object to plant
> patents per se were they granted to a specific plant. If we were only
> letting honest individual businesspersons reap the reward due them for
their
> efforts I'd be cool with that.  My biggest problem with the patent system
is
> how it's being used as a weapon in corporate attempts to concentrate or
> monopolize agricultural power.  If I were controlling Monsanto-Seminis and
> wanted to expand my power I'd put a patented, engineered gene into all my
> corn seed--then sue anyone who had the gall to "steal" my creation by
> actually allowing their corn plants to receive pollen from mine.  Oh
gosh, I
> forgot--they're already doing this.
>
> Second, (and I only bring this up in response to a political point you
made,
> Jerry) please don't buy into the Party line that the only alternative to
> monopoly and oligarchy is "socialism". (The former CCCP is more accurately
> described as Leninist anyway.) Democratic capitalism, in its political and
> economic sense,  is the system I espouse. The capitalist system (in the
> broadest sense) is superior in every measurable sense to the old Soviet
> system.  A fully functioning capitalist system depends on the rule of law,
> and one can arbitrarily write those laws to favor almost any particular
> group without disrupting the essentially capitalist nature of the system.
> (Campaign contribution anyone?)  It is not 'socialistic' to structure the
> rules in a way that prevents the concentration of economic power and
wealth
> in the hands of the few, or the one.  The accusation of "socialism" has
> stymied most attempts at  economic change in the United States for the
last
> sixty years.  In the same way that the former Soviet Union's ideological
> blinders slowed the rational acceptance of the superiority of the Western
> capitalist economic system, the US suffers from the same sort of hangover
> from the Cold War.  All one has to do to stop an economic discussion or
> discredit the messenger an issue (who might, say, want to attempt to reign
> in the abuses of an economic elite, or want to join the rest of the
> industrialized world in providing universal health care) is to toss the
> epithet "socialism" into the picture--an accusation tantamount to treason
> during and since the Cold War.  US ideology also holds that the private
> sector is always more efficient than the government in a given activity.
> This is objectively false is some cases.  Health care comes to mind-- 
> because of  ideological  blindness the US has the highest health care
costs
> in the world--yeah, some folks get great care, but it can be done for less
> without the 23% mark-up for the "administrative" costs of "competing"
> private insurance providers. Medicare drug benefits anyone?
>
> Perhaps because of my upbringing outside the US, the closed nature of
> American popular political thought jumps out at me.  Thought-stifling
> verbiage is not just a product of the US right wing--the Left has its own
> verbal weapons to squelch dialogue.  "Racism" is one that comes to mind.
> But Leftist ideology does not appear to be driving the revisions of patent
> practice underway  without any real national discussion about their impact
> on our future.  The decisions that have changed the fundamental scope of
> biological patent law are being done administratively or judicially in
most
> cases, with no input from Congress--hey, no need for campaign
contributions.
> Where are the Right's objections to "activist judges" on this issue.  I
> don't mind having rules--they are necessary, but if I believe that a law,
as
> it stands, is immoral, I'm not going to snitch on violators, even if I
have
> no intention on violating the law myself.
>
> With apologies to those who have no interest in a topic only marginally
> related to fruit exploration, though you were warned in the subject line,
>
> Steve H.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Levine" <mlevine@umich.edu>
> To: <breen@fedcoseeds.com>; "North American Fruit Explorers"
> <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Moral and Legal Patent Quandries
>
>
> > I have some questions about moral and legal patent issues also.  If a
gene
> > is inserted into a plant and patented, but the plant is one that can
> easily
> > spread across property lines or can spread it's pollen across property
> > lines, is the progeny of that plant protected by patent law?
> >
> > If I genetically modify and patent a strawberry and it spreads to your
> > property, are you violating my patent rights?  What if you plant seed
from
> > that strawberry on your property and it contains my patented gene, are
you
> > violating my rights?  What if an animal vector plants it?
> >
> > What if my plant becomes a serious nuisance weed on your farm, resulting
> in
> > lower crop yields and increased labor or other costs?  Can you sue me?
> >
> > What about if my genetic experiment crosses with seed you've been saving
> for
> > your breeding project and now you can't use the stock from your breeding
> > project because I own a patent on a gene that contaminated your stock?
> >
> > What about if my genetic experiment crosses with seed you use on your
> > organic farm without your permission?  Can you still sell the produce as
> > organic?  Can you sue me?
> >
> >
> > Mike Levine
> > Ann Arbor, MI zone 5b
> >
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