Mounted search and rescue

["Annabelle Pattison" <aapattison@aol.com>]

I really do not like this term at all. I like my horses to be trained and
desensitized to specific stimuli. We want them to partner with us because
our horses will "hear" way before us could see or hear. We need to know how
to "read" our horses so we know what to expect when they alert us. 

Training in different environments is key. We are blessed here in AZ because
we can pick our terrain. From heavy forest to deserts and from plains to
mountains, we got it. When you are searching out there for somebody your
horse has to know how to negotiate the terrain and be safe. They need to
know to stay away from Chollas and keep their distance from Sahuaros and
Mesquite. Otherwise you are doomed out there and will end up being rescued
yourself.

Our recent search for three lost hikers/prospectors in the Superstition
Mountains represented a complexity of training issues: 
1- Very rough terrain: rocky, steep, full of boulders and cacti, thick brush
and 3 feet tall grass.
2- High heat: 95 degrees at 6am. 113 by 10:30am.
3- Rattle snakes
4- Communications: no cell phone reception and very difficult radio
transmission.
5- Multiple search parties: horses, dogs, helicopters, planes, foot.
6- Multiagency search

The list goes on...
My philosophy is: go out and train, train, train and expose your horse to
everything you can think off but above all, learn how to read your horse.

A. Pattison
MCSO EVMP SAR


-----Original Message-----
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Today's Topics:

   1. Definition of bombproof...and Johns list... (Karen Nesbitt)
   2. Re: Definition of bombproof...and Johns list...
      (Irvin Lichtenstein )
   3. Re: Definition of bombproof.. (T Finkle )
   4. Re: Only a schnauzer... (ALLEN SNYDER)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 15:52:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Karen Nesbitt <spanishequines@yahoo.com>
To: MSAR <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [MSAR] Definition of bombproof...and Johns list...
Message-ID: <636730.77731.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

RESPONDING TO:
?
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 16:53:25 -0400
From: "Irvin Lichtenstein " <ilichten1@verizon.net>
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] MSAR horse training
Message-ID: <FD70DC16F5FF455AB7AAE80C0DC159D4@irvsbigbox>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I disagree with the "bombproof" approach to SAR horse training.? What you
want is a controlled reaction to events/objects/persons on the trail.

Most of the time when riding actual searches you will be looking for clues
and not paying attention to the trail.? Your horse's job is to pay
attention, keep you from walking off the mountain, and to tell you what is
attracting
his attention.? 



A bombproof horse will get you killed (and the horse also, probably).? 



You need a mount that takes orders, but knows when you are doing something
stupid, and that will alert or tell you if there is something

strange on the tail.? 



Irv Lichtenstein 

SE PA SAR 

------------
?
Irv, perhaps you should explain more thorough what you mean by bombproofing.

Because Im not saying you need to launch gernades at it.?That is NOT what I
am saying when I say to bombproof a horse.? And your right, someone would
get killed if they tried doing something? that stupid.? Remember, I do not
volunteer for having dogs sicked at me, guns or fireworks and other things
aimed at me. My one?mare will try to?kill a dog if it came on her.? As for
fireworks and some guns, they seem to be in someone elses hands
?
I am saying you do need to have an animal that can take a lot of situations
and do a mirade of things.? 
?
You have to realize, once you start to train an animal, you are doing two
simultaneous things.? One you are asking the animal to become sensative to
what you ask it to do.? And
at the same time you are asking it to leave some of its instinct behind and
trust you so that it does not have the fear of its going to be eaten.? What
you do not want to do in an MSAR horse is train its natural instincts
totally out of him so that he will not alert you to things.? Some
individuals instincts are stronger or bolder or weaker than others.? And a
horse survives on hierarchy and the buddy system.? 
?
If you are already riding the horse, you already have asked him and taught
him that you are not his foe and that its ok for you to ride him and that
you and?the saddle will not eat him.? But he knows something will eat him
and you cant let your training?take that away from him.? Especially when it
comes to scent training.? To much could ruin a good thing.
?
So backing up a bit, when I said bomproof earlyier, to me a bomproof
horse?IS one that has thoroughly learned what it expected of him given the
tasks he is asked to do and in his given job and one that will not kill you
or itself in the process.
?
I do not need any mount sailing out from under at anytime be it helicopters
or dust storms or? cliffs? or whatever.? But what I do want out of my mount
is his abilities to perform for me a lot of jobs that also may come? in
handy when it comes to using the horse for the RESCUE part of MSAR mission
should the horse be further needed.?? Searching is one thing, rescuing is an
addition to his abilities.
?
Got a tree on top of a victim?? Wouldnt it be nice to be able to fire up a
chainsaw, not spook the herd and haul lumber with a rope off the saddle horn
just to even get to a victim?
Stuff like that.
?
John had asked for a list of what others do.? My previous list was actually
a short list when it gets down to? what I personally would expect MY
ultimate MSAR or even ranch horse to do.? And John, if your still reading
each of us here will have something that we do and the others will not and
just because we disagree, may not make it a wrong.? We are all different.
?
I am sure just about every rider here is going to have a difference of
opinion to what they do to train their horse for MSAR on?and the other hitch
is? turf.? Like Una said, she has rimrock, caverns and cliffs, I have wooded
rolls, sand pits?and flat turf and some guys just have the city park and
unless?one has the ability to get to all the areas of the country to
experience the terrains and the type of riding, some of us will have no clue
what our mounts will actually do if put in a terrain it never handled.
?
So now its going to boil down to? on how far the rider is willing to go with
his mount.? Are you locking yourself into a unit that just patrols the same
area and turf all the time or are maybe a volunteer willing and able to be
one that might opt to cross a state line?? If you hit the road to some place
you have never been on turf you have never taken your animal on, you could
be in for some big suprises.? Having ridden rimrock and canyons in Texas, Im
not so sure I would be taking the?big draft?Black that IRV has in PA to
negotiate those similiar crags and canyons that Una has in New Mexico and?I
personally?would be wanting a more appropriate mount like a?well trained
rangebred mustang or a horse that is familiar with that kind of turf and
would have to even?opt to leave my most?surefooted lil?Pasos at home!?? But
I would love very much to take also the challenge even?knowing I might be
doing something rather stupid.? Until you try it
 you? never know if you have made the mistake or not and the ride is
always?at your risk.
?
So ok, that in mind, doing stupid... may also be a matter of an opinion.
?
Try to stay safe everyone.
?
?





??????? Karen
************** N O T I C E ************** 
The information contained in this transmission is intended for the exclusive
use of the addressee(s) and may contain information that is privileged,
confidential, and/or protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended
recipient, do not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you
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not forward without my permission, Thank you.
?
?

?


      
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 21:12:28 -0400
From: "Irvin Lichtenstein " <ilichten1@verizon.net>
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Definition of bombproof...and Johns list...
Message-ID: <F522914919BA4017863E00E2C7B8DD8A@irvsbigbox>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Most people, and most "horse requirements" are desirous of a horse that
doesn't react to anything on the trail. If you look at what is advertised as
bomb proofing  clinics,. they involve, literally, bombs (fireworks, smoke,
flapping objects, crazy people, dogs) with the object of teaching the horse
to ignore these.  This is fine for a trail horse that never leaves the park,
or maybe a police crowd control mount. 

 

But as I have been writing about and advocating since the late 1980's you
must use your horse's senses and brains to partner with you on a search.
There are some things your horse should react to and some things he should
alert you to.  Mine knows about shotguns and stops dead in his tracks if he
hears one. He also tenses up because he knows shotguns are bad.  He doesn't
like the noise small motorcycle engines make because the people who ride
them often don't know what they are doing and shouldn't be in the park
anyway.  But once he identified the engine as not moving towards him he
tolerated it.  He will move around farm machinery, but not heavy
construction equipment because he knows dozer operators can't see or hear
him.   

 

And he tells me what is ahead often minutes before we get there or it gets
to us.  Horses are really smart. They can learn to trust their rider and
when not to. They will learn what is dangerous to them and what is not,
partly by how you react and partly by how others on the trail react. If you
keep your horse in an environment where he is never exposed to the real
world of farm machinery, vehicles, other horses you need to train him how to
be a social animal.  If the opposite is true they will just learn on their
own for the most part.   

 

Irv Lichtenstein 

SE PA SAR

 

  _____  

From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karen Nesbitt
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 6:53 PM
To: MSAR
Subject: [MSAR] Definition of bombproof...and Johns list...

 


 

 

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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 07:10:26 -0400
From: "T Finkle " <tfinkle@erols.com>
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Definition of bombproof..
Message-ID: <f5a428$p7irbh@smtp04.lnh.mail.rcn.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Well said Irv!

 

To add: Horses also learn and do know the difference working and pleasure
riding.  Our MSAR team (as like most other MSAR teams) practice/drill with
our turnout gear.  When on mission the same gear is used, which helps the
horse understand that he/she has a job and will learn what those jobs skills
are.  Training with other MSAR equines (and MSAR Teams) also reinforces
their learned jobs skills.  It is impossible for a mount to perform as a
public safety working animal unless it is exposed to regular and routine
training or deployment (mock or real).  If an equine does not train with
other MSAR mounts on a routine basis, then it is simply a trail horse.   

 

A properly trained MSAR mount knows the difference between flashing lights
of an emergency vehicle and a subject with flashlight in a search area. They
can ignore generator at base camp, yet will alert on a running car engine
located well past a trail head.   An MSAR will ignore a few dozen people at
base camp, but provide a strong alert on a person walking in the woods 100
meters away.  Yes Irv, I agree MSAR horses are smart and learn their job if
provided real life (SAR) training on a regular basis.  Just like any other
equine discipline; MSAR mounts must train with other MSAR mounts in order to
be effective and to know/learn their job, they simply can not learn the job
in any other way. 

 

Nowadays many AHJ/RA's are requiring SAR teams to have documentation that
each member attends one search or FSE mock search, plus complete 2 or 3
search tasks yearly.  This holds true for MSAR teams too.  If a full scale
multi discipline exercise is conducted properly, than an MSAR equine will
know that duty calls and will remember its training, just as it would
deployed on a live mission.  This is why more and more AHJ/RA's mandate that
team training must be routinely conducted and training records on each rider
and mount must be maintained (documentation of testing and training to
standards has become the NRF ESF-9 norm).           

 

T'mi

www.trotsar.org

 

  _____  

From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Irvin
Lichtenstein 



Most people, and most "horse requirements" are desirous of a horse that
doesn't react to anything on the trail. If you look at what is advertised as
bomb proofing  clinics,. they involve, literally, bombs (fireworks, smoke,
flapping objects, crazy people, dogs) with the object of teaching the horse
to ignore these.  This is fine for a trail horse that never leaves the park,
or maybe a police crowd control mount. 

 

But as I have been writing about and advocating since the late 1980's you
must use your horse's senses and brains to partner with you on a search.
There are some things your horse should react to and some things he should
alert you to.  Mine knows about shotguns and stops dead in his tracks if he
hears one. He also tenses up because he knows shotguns are bad.  He doesn't
like the noise small motorcycle engines make because the people who ride
them often don't know what they are doing and shouldn't be in the park
anyway.  But once he identified the engine as not moving towards him he
tolerated it.  He will move around farm machinery, but not heavy
construction equipment because he knows dozer operators can't see or hear
him.   

 

And he tells me what is ahead often minutes before we get there or it gets
to us.  Horses are really smart. They can learn to trust their rider and
when not to. They will learn what is dangerous to them and what is not,
partly by how you react and partly by how others on the trail react. If you
keep your horse in an environment where he is never exposed to the real
world of farm machinery, vehicles, other horses you need to train him how to
be a social animal.  If the opposite is true they will just learn on their
own for the most part.   

 

Irv Lichtenstein 

SE PA SAR

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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:09:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: ALLEN SNYDER <allendana1@sbcglobal.net>
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Only a schnauzer...
Message-ID: <462708.69742.qm@web82201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Just poking a little fun, but I own a schnauzer/terrier mix (great family
dog) and take great care to prevent mishaps like this!?? Yes I agree, people
are a priority.? Schnauzers and terriers can be irritating/think they are
bigger than reality and the owner or situation may have been handled better
since you know there are always 2 sides to every story.? Have a nice week!?
Dana

--- On Sun, 7/25/10, Irvin Lichtenstein <ilichten1@verizon.net> wrote:

From: Irvin Lichtenstein <ilichten1@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] K-9 Suspended
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Sunday, July 25, 2010, 5:36 AM




 
 

 







At least it was only a Schnauzer.?
Philadelp hia PD had a civilian
trainer who thought all police dogs need to bite suspects. He cost the City
millions in settlements. 

Irv Lichtenstein ? 

 ? 









From:
msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karen Nesbitt

Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 7:46
PM

To: MSAR; Mounted
 search and rescue in Illinois USA.

Subject: [MSAR] K-9 Suspended 



 ? 



 


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