Mounted search and rescue

[Dana Mc <k9preydrive@yahoo.com>]

Every time the leadership changes the corporate memory takes a hit.  You
must reestablish relationships, convince potential mutual aid users of your
capabilities, and keep up your qualifications.  Having a pack rat mentality
and large filing cabinets also help.

---

From: "msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org" <msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 12:21:11 PM
Subject: MSAR-Riders Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :) (Dana Mc)
  2. Re: Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :) (Trailriding-Texas)
  3. Re: Radios (IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN)
  4. Re: Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :) (IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN)
  5. Re: Radios (Jorene Downs)
  6. SSCC  / Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :) (Jorene Downs)
  7. Re: Radios (Louis)
  8. Re: Radios (Louis)
  9. Re: Radios (IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 17:53:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dana Mc <k9preydrive@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :)
To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <251424.72418.qm@web58405.mail.re3.yahoo.com" href="mailto:251424.72418.qm@web58405.mail.re3.yahoo.com">251424.72418.qm@web58405.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Never said it DIDN'T exist. :) Of course they do. But without the right
coordiantion and understanding they don't go together as I mentioned.

It's  like sayin sugar, vanilla, chocolate, flour, water, salt
exist...doesn't mean they are put together all the time and in the
right mixture to make Mom's homemade chocolate chip cookies!

And being that I trained in CA with what was considered a backwoods
county there, and then moved to Southern IL where SAR understanding is
TRULY 20 years behind, I can tell you that many of you and your
discussions, will never see light in this part of the world...not for
at least 10 or 20 years. Local ESDAs still send out fire, spontanteous
vols, cops, local boys with dogs... and the coordination is left to the
wind.

Things get done. Don't get me wrong. But they are not what you see in
more prepared and ready SAR environments. It is changing. But very
slowly.

The scenario I proposed sounds like a dream comparitively and our team
here strives to work towards that goal of cooperation. But it takes
more than one team to do it. And this state's head EMA (IEMA) is not
focusing on SAR at all. In fact they cut it out of their organization
in 2001. Left it to individual counties to care for. And the decline
began.

I love listening in on groups such as this. I glean pearls of wisdom all the time. And I appreciate all of your enthusiasm that you have for what you do. I just try to take away a few things now and then that will help 1) our team and 2) SAR in this region. Just wish our state would take as much interest.

Good luck to you all, and if you lived in such a blessed area such as Irv, or those of you in CA and other similar places, count your stars! :) Or move here and help us out! lol

Dana










Message: 2
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 08:51:42 -0400
From: "IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN" <ilichten1@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :)
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <0KNR00KTO2BWIBK0@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net" href="mailto:0KNR00KTO2BWIBK0@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net">0KNR00KTO2BWIBK0@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In Pennsylvania anyway, if not the rest of the world:

Let's see-flankers were introduced to the air scent dog world about 1982 or
3, formal use of air scent horses 1986, we had a VHF license and permission
to talk to other agencies from 1980 or so (and the state SAR council had a
statewide multi-channel license by 1987) and one member did have a TV
equipped model helicopter by 1989. So, much of the world you want has been
around for a while, and coordinated responses as well.  (By the way it has
been illegal for an organization to have a GMRS license for at least 10
years, individuals only). The problem is that people don't study history,
they relive it.



What we didn't have 10 years ago was portable GPS and laptops, but then we
didn't need as many types of spare batteries either.



Irv Lichtenstein


     
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 21:50:43 -0500
From: "Trailriding-Texas" <trlrider2@trailriding-texas.us>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :)
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <9A100C8742824903B2D41E8429117494@K1STX>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Irv,
It is not illegal to have a group/organization GMRS license! In fact, there are groups that have managed to keep theirs from expiring, but once it expires, it will not be re-issued! 

There is a move, to have the FCC re-instate the ability for legitimate and recognized public service groups to have an organizational GMRS license again.  It will take allot of work, and some organized response to the request!

Many organizations that did at one time have the group GMRS license, instead of fighting to keep it, just applied for commercial licenses, in the same general area of the band!  This was easy, since real true GMRS radios are programmable, such as the Motorola HT-50's and newer units!
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN
  To: 'Mounted search and rescue'
  Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 7:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [MSAR] Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :)


  In Pennsylvania anyway, if not the rest of the world:

  Let's see-flankers were introduced to the air scent dog world about 1982 or 3, formal use of air scent horses 1986, we had a VHF license and permission to talk to other agencies from 1980 or so (and the state SAR council had a statewide multi-channel license by 1987) and one member did have a TV equipped model helicopter by 1989. So, much of the world you want has been around for a while, and coordinated responses as well.  (By the way it has been illegal for an organization to have a GMRS license for at least 10 years, individuals only). The problem is that people don't study history, they relive it.

 

  What we didn't have 10 years ago was portable GPS and laptops, but then we didn't need as many types of spare batteries either.

 

  Irv Lichtenstein

 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Dana Mc
  Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 8:12 PM
  To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
  Cc: Jamie Nash
  Subject: [MSAR] Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :)



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 00:37:39 -0400
From: "IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN" <ilichten1@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Radios
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <0KNS00CHVA4HCJP3@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net" href="mailto:0KNS00CHVA4HCJP3@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net">0KNS00CHVA4HCJP3@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Most of the grandfathered community repeaters belonged to REACT teams that
have gone the way of unfunded NGO's or lost their sites to cellular, PCS, or
news.

Several of the Amateur and REACT units were hung off the TV towers around
here, until the TV stations needed the space for electronic news gathering.
Most commercial users switched to other UHF community repeater services or
went to 800 MHz dispatch.  The rules changed over 20 years ago and no new or
relocated licenses were to be issued to any organization from that point,
and commercial usage had to cease.  Further, any existing systems will have
to narrow band by 2013, when all channels below 512 MHz have to narrow band.
The propagation problems at 460-465 MHz and the interference problems due to
uncontrolled use are also considerations. Almost all of the Town Watch, and
other users switched to cell phones (which are often free) or 800 push to
talk services for better coverage and fewer hassles with other users.  And
since the systems cannot be relocated when a building changes ownership, or
a paying use for the roof space come up, most GMRS community sites will
disappear from the urban and suburban landscape, let alone the licenses. 



It is just easier to get a public safety license, the equipment is as cheap
as GMRS, and better quality, rugged, etc. Our county has kept its 150 MHZ
licenses active for tone and voice dispatch, VHF-Hi is used by many
townships for public works departments, police and fire companies that had
their own base stations kept the licenses when they switched to 800.  For
the most part these are HT1000 or later systems that will reprogram.  We
also have 2 counties that are in the 500 MHz region, one is an analog voice
trunk system.  Other agencies have also remained on 150 or even lower
frequencies due to terrain or other considerations.  PA DCNR uses 150 band
in the state parks and forests, the PA Turnpike uses 150 for all uses,
including patrol and communication with off Turnpike responders.  Many of
these systems are very elaborate and will remain in use for many years just
due to the costs of replacing them.  And don't forget the CAP, USCG, USFS,
Amtrak, and other national users of the 150 band. And while you may think a
Motorola is field programmable, corporate policy is only that Motorola
authorized shops can have Motorola programming equipment and anybody using
3rd party equipment or software is a patent infringer. And if your system
does use HT50's, Motrans, Motrac's, Maritrans, or similar pre-1995 equipment
you may not be able to narrow band it and Motorola has suddenly realized how
many systems are out there it can convert to its version of TETRA which it
has been sitting on for years.  This will use a digital voice signal and a 2
slot TDMA (the EU version is 4 slots) so everybody will have to buy new
radios and only from Moto since they own the rights in North America. Those
of you who use Nextel should be aware that Sprint has sold all the IDEN
infrastructure to Erricson which will maintain the system and complete the
rebanding process while providing the service exclusively to Sprint-Nextel
for now. 

 

The usual IMSA coordination fee for public safety in 150 fire is $200 per
transmit channel for each fixed site, and the same for each mobile only
channel.  Right now, APCO, one of the other coordination groups, is running
a sale for narrow-banding and minor non-engineering changes (names and
addresses of contact persons, etc.) and charging only $100 per license not
per channel or per site. 



We currently have 2 Motorola 800MHz trunk units, a county issued 2500
series, and a grant purchased 5000 series operated under the county license
and maintained by the county's authorized in house shop under an extended
warranty.  We also have use of 10 B-K (Relm now) 148-174 MHz portables with
at least 14 channels.  Several are "master radios" with keyboards and
displays, the rest are clones.  These are E, and M series.  One E portable
and an LMH 35 watt mobile were bought new over 20 years ago as dealer
samples.  The rest were bought used through a dealer for about $100 for each
master, and $55 for each clone.  We bought 2 new 1400 MWH batteries for each
($50 per radio). The dealer threw in King smart chargers and whatever
accessories (cases and speaker mikes) that had come in with them.  These are
military specification radios, (AN/PRC125 I think) can be field programmed,
narrow banded channel by channel, power settings can be programmed or set by
the user on the fly (1.5 WRF or 5WRF), scan, priority, transmitter time
outs,  CG, ANI, and the keyboard units can generate Touch-Tone for paging,
dialing (DCNR has auto patch) or repeater control.  There is also a
computerized ACT 125 battery reconditioner that was a dealer sample. We have
tried FRS and other low power UHF without good results in the woods, or even
across a field.  The Kings are programmed with 14 channels-2 statewide SAR
simplex and 2 repeaters, 3 county simplex fire channels, 1 public works
channel, park police simplex, 3 DCNR repeaters, 1 DCNR talk-around, and what
was a county EMA repeater that is now a paging channel.  We hope to change
channel 14 to a Turnpike zone repeater soon. 



  _____ 

From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
Trailriding-Texas
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 10:51 PM
To: Mounted search and rescue
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :)



Irv,

It is not illegal to have a group/organization GMRS license! In fact, there
are groups that have managed to keep theirs from expiring, but once it
expires, it will not be re-issued!  Non-conforming use-go off the air for a
very short period and lose the license.



There is a move, to have the FCC re-instate the ability for legitimate and
recognized public service groups to have an organizational GMRS license
again.  It will take allot of work, and some organized response to the
request! Unlikely-the new nationwide 700 public/private network is designed
to handle this use and recognized public service agencies are either
eligible already for public safety or dedicated channels for their use (see
Red Cross, Salvation Army, AAA for examples).  Strictly local organizations
that are not considered public safety go private land mobile radio services,
or more likely Nextel (IDEN) or a cell phone based push to talk (CDMA).  The
police mobile data systems around here use Verizon Wireless VPN.



Many organizations that did at one time have the group GMRS license, instead
of fighting to keep it, just applied for commercial licenses, in the same
general area of the band!  This was easy, since real true GMRS radios are
programmable, such as the Motorola HT-50's and newer units!

----- Original Message -----

From: IRVIN <mailto:ilichten1@verizon.net>  LICHTENSTEIN

To: 'Mounted search and rescue' <mailto:msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org> 

Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 7:51 AM

Subject: Re: [MSAR] Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :)



In Pennsylvania anyway, if not the rest of the world:

Let's see-flankers were introduced to the air scent dog world about 1982 or
3, formal use of air scent horses 1986, we had a VHF license and permission
to talk to other agencies from 1980 or so (and the state SAR council had a
statewide multi-channel license by 1987) and one member did have a TV
equipped model helicopter by 1989. So, much of the world you want has been
around for a while, and coordinated responses as well.  (By the way it has
been illegal for an organization to have a GMRS license for at least 10
years, individuals only). The problem is that people don't study history,
they relive it.



What we didn't have 10 years ago was portable GPS and laptops, but then we
didn't need as many types of spare batteries either.



Irv Lichtenstein




  _____ 


From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Dana Mc
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 8:12 PM
To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
Cc: Jamie Nash
Subject: [MSAR] Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :)


  _____ 


_______________________________________________
MSAR-Riders mailing list
MSAR-Riders@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/msar-riders

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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 01:05:44 -0400
From: "IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN" <ilichten1@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :)
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <0KNS00334BF9J4H2@vms173019.mailsrvcs.net" href="mailto:0KNS00334BF9J4H2@vms173019.mailsrvcs.net">0KNS00334BF9J4H2@vms173019.mailsrvcs.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Much of the problem is that as people come and go the knowledge comes and
goes. Unless someone writes it down and allows others to learn from the
history

It is lost and much be relearned.  Most volunteer responders burn out or
leave the area after 5 years or so.  I have been in SAR research and
actively participating since 1979 with field activity breaks (but not a
research break) due to work or health totaling 5 years over that time.  All
the people I trained as search mangers have left the field years ago.  Most
of the emergency responders active today don't know there are search
managers available.  Or SAR resources available in many cases. 



Under FEMA guidelines each emergency response plan must be an all hazards
plan and include wilderness SAR, Large Animal / Livestock Rescue, Disaster
Relocation, and Food stock protection plans.  There are NFPA standards that
cover wilderness SAR and ASTM Standards as well. NASAR is in the certificate
business, and is trying to organize the state and regional SAR coordinators
into a NASAR SIG.



When I started it was somewhat easier to try new techniques as there were
fewer experts out there to argue with.  When the SAR organization I was
chief of in the early 1980's through 1995 insisted that dog handlers not
work alone and carry stuff like radios (which they didn't have because the
organizations were too small to afford them), the handlers screamed like the
proverbial stuck pig.  But as their dogs learned to discriminate they
realized how much more territory they could cover with three persons and a
dog versus one handler and one dog.  We convinced 3 nationally known
handlers and the concept was accepted across the country.  We started
teaching MSO as a fire academy course around 1986, just as NASAR eliminated
volunteer instructors.  There were close to 40 students in the first class.



What you have to realize is that volunteer fire companies usually have rapid
turnover in leadership, as do some volunteer SAR organizations that annually
elect officers.

Every time the leadership changes the corporate memory takes a hit.  You
must reestablish relationships, convince potential mutual aid users of your
capabilities, and keep up your qualifications.  Having a pack rat mentality
and large filing cabinets also help.



Irv Lichtenstein     



  _____ 

From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Dana Mc
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:53 PM
To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :)

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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 22:47:31 -0700
From: "Jorene Downs" <Jorene@CEOates.com>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Radios
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <003c01ca13fd$e4973990$adc5acb0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Just as an FYI - there are many agencies still using VHF.



-          Jorene



From: IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN



Most of the grandfathered community repeaters belonged to REACT teams that
have gone the way of unfunded NGO's or lost their sites to cellular, PCS, or
news.

Several of the Amateur and REACT units were hung off the TV towers around
here, until the TV stations needed the space for electronic news gathering.
Most commercial users switched to other UHF community repeater services or
went to 800 MHz dispatch.  [.]

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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 23:22:55 -0700
From: "Jorene Downs" <Jorene@CEOates.com>
Subject: [MSAR] SSCC  / Dogs, Horses....rats in SAR :)
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <005001ca1402$d6682500$83386f00$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Clarification / Correction on IRV's comment. The State SAR Coordinators have
been meeting annually with feds and others for many years, with NASAR
www.nasar.org  providing the conference meeting space and encouraging
participation. As of May 2009 this evolved to forming a State SAR
Coordinators Council (SSCC) that is nationwide in the USA, with about 20
states represented  and about 20 agency representatives (FEMA, DHS, NPS,
AFRCC, etc.) at the last meeting. The SSCC formed under the NASAR umbrella
so it could immediately have non-profit 501(c)(3) status. 



This is a *giant* stride for SAR in the USA, with substantial credit going
to Cole Brown (MD SAR Coordinator) for getting the new council formed. Cole
is also the elected Chair of the SSCC, Matt Scharper (CA SAR Coordinator) is
Vice-Chair, and Byron Thompson (LA SAR Coordinator) is Secretary.



- - - - - -

Jorene Downs

SAR & CERT

Mounted SAR

www.ceoates.com/msar





From: IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN



NASAR is in the certificate business, and is trying to organize the state
and regional SAR coordinators into a NASAR SIG.



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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 07:08:16 -0500
From: Louis <trlrider2@trailriding-texas.us>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Radios
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <1249301296.28995.20.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

These statements may again hold true for PA, but do not hold water in
the rest of the country.  In many areas of this country, relying on any
type of power hungry trunking system, whether is be conventional or
digital, is asking for disaster in itself!

As you are well aware, SAR/MSAR does not always in perfect conditions.
Parts of the country were Tornadoes, Hurricanes, Earthquakes and other
natural and man made disasters occur, and the power grid can be taken
down in a instant, many of the systems you have mentions are useless!

Will address this more after work and VOAD meeting this evening! But,
700 mhz systems are severely limited in use and range, without a complex
network to back it up.  Same goes for 800/900 systems! IN real disaster
and emergency setup - simple is the answer!

Off to work,

Louis Upton

On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 00:37 -0400, IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN wrote:
> Most of the grandfathered community repeaters belonged to REACT teams
> that have gone the way of unfunded NGO?s or lost their sites to
> cellular, PCS, or news.
>
> Several of the Amateur and REACT units were hung off the TV towers
> around here, until the TV stations needed the space for electronic
> news gathering.  Most commercial users switched to other UHF community
> repeater services or went to 800 MHz dispatch.  The rules changed
> over ......

Clipped
>



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 07:20:21 -0500
From: Louis <trlrider2@trailriding-texas.us>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Radios
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <1249302021.29481.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Just another quick note,

1) A group license is not require to own, operate and maintain a GMRS
repeater!

2) Personally, sitting next to me, are: a 440 mhz ham portable repeater,
a GMRS portable repeater. A 450 mhz range portable repeater is in the
process of being built, licensed to 2 organizations that I work with.
that I maintain and keep available for whatever event may require them
to be use!  All have the ability to be set-up quickly, operate on or off
the grid, and provide reliable and long term communications. There is
also parts and pieces laying here, for another GMRS system that will be
fixed at a location that can service 2 state parks in the area!

Why, the trunking systems fail and simple communications are needed!
And Nextel (or similiar systems) are a joke in rural Texas, Oklahoma and
New Mexico!

I am a licensed in both the Amateur and GMRS segments!

Louis

On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 00:37 -0400, IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN wrote:
> Most of the grandfathered community repeaters belonged to REACT teams
> that have gone the way of unfunded NGO?s or lost their sites to
> cellular, PCS, or news.
>
> Several of the Amateur and REACT units were hung off the TV towers
> around here, until the TV stations needed the space for electronic
>



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 12:33:35 -0400
From: "IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN" <ilichten1@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Radios
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <0KNT00KXC79OXXI3@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net" href="mailto:0KNT00KXC79OXXI3@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net">0KNT00KXC79OXXI3@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Read what I wrote--NGO SAR is mostly highband simplex around here (155.160,
155.265, a mobile only input channel repeatered out on either 160 or 265,
and DCNR channels mostly).  Most agencies that were large area coverage are
still highband and some are still as low as 33MHz.

Amateur repeaters, 6M, 10M, 2M, and UHF typically lack standby power at
fixed sites other than government buildings or commercial radio sites. And
require a suitably licensed control operator(s). Before 800 came in the
local 450-512 police repeaters all lacked long term emergency power.  A
trunk is extremely complex to build and manage. Each county in the 5 county
region uses a different system-- Philadelphia and Montgomery use Motorola
800 digital simulcast that differ only in software release.  Bucks use a
500MHz analog voice system, Delaware uses a 500 MHz conventional system
(with some 45MHz fire still) and Chester uses ELTR at 800MHz. Each of these
systems is elaborately backed up and made redundant and load shedding to
support police, fire, and EMS operations on a daily basis. And most cost in
excess of $20 Million to build the fixed sites. Paging or alerting is on
different systems with some counties using simulcast alphanumeric, tone and
voice, open voice and RSAN as redundant systems. Local government operations
(streets, highways, trash, water and sewer) are for the most part on private
systems. Yes, our county tower sites have an on site Diesel power pack while
the commercial cellular equipment does not. We have a backup PSAP and
several other sites where 9-1-1 can be answered. Because the NFPA wants
every firefighter to have a portable radio there are lots of portables
available in the region for each system. Local fire companies have spent a
fortune to comply with this rule, especially those along county borders
where multiple radios are needed. And many still maintain the highband
portables and licenses from before the trunk. The county would prefer we
operate on their system so that we are integrated with other responder
services and can be more easily supported by their field communications vans
and repeaters. The problem is that many other agencies we work with are not
800 systems or may be not compatible with the county. 

Yesterday (8-02) the Bucks County fire system went down.  Unlike the others
in the area which have backups they don't and lost alerting for several
hours.

An individual, whether a natural person or a corporation, can license almost
anywhere except GMRS where natural persons are the only eligibles for new
licenses/ major modification since 1987. Shared access repeaters in GMRS are
difficult to manage with each user having to license the site and the
control operator having to make sure no commercial use is made of the site.
And one member of a group can take on the license and operation of a GMRS
repeater, so long as he pays for it since you cannot charge to access a
non-commercial site. Since 1987 GMRS has been limited to family recreational
use.   


We don't use amateur equipment because of licensing and availability issues.

We don't use trunk 800 in the field usually because we can't afford it or
the agency we are supporting doesn't use it. GMRS does not cover, even in
our urban areas, and while Nextel is available the service isn't worth the
cost.

If you want to study public safety communications go to APCO International,
the association of public safety communicators.  There are many articles in
their archives concerning disaster survivability, redundancy, and features
needed in current public safety systems.  But you have to read what is
written carefully because proper English is used, not texting speech (which
dates back to the telegraph where saving letters was important in terms of
keystrokes).

Irv Lichtenstein

-----Original Message-----
From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Louis
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:20 AM
To: Mounted search and rescue
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Radios



------------------------------

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End of MSAR-Riders Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3
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