Just some odd thoughts here....
In the topic of colors, the red light vs white,
green,yellow, orange, blue etc at night, are not most of you using
also reflective clothing or reflective wraps on your horses legs or
saddles? What color light is best then for that along with which
lites? One would assume white or yellow clothing would be a
benefit at night along with the reflectives. With that in mind
then, certain lights color could work to obscure things vs making them clearer....So
then issue do arrise, safety vs a lesser menu as well. Glow sticks or
glow paint could become useful. The paint especially to your gear so
that even without light, some things can be easier located. And by day,
these marks would not show. Ever try to find your flashlight at night
and wish the thing was on so you could see it better? Well, that is
what I am saying in the reflective paint. A stripe of glow paint
on that light would help locate it quickly at night as on any gear.
Does anyone know of any manufacturer that makes a so
called uniform that looks normal in the day but by night would give a
florecent glow so as people such as MSAR or SAR etc would not have to pack a
ton of gear to their traveliong closet for being on a tight budget as most
units are to add these reflectors to their clothes in particular??
Would not that be an awesome peice of equipment to standardize into the
industry? I think clothing like that would be awesome for self
protection on not only for searches but for officers who are on night patrol
and may be helping a subject and his clothes would then better give
his presence in traffic on a dark night when on the shoulder of the road,
possibly lessoning their potential of getting hit by oncoming traffic?
Sometimes the red, blue and white lights of the sqauds just are not
adequate to see the officers at large as they approach a vehicle on the
drivers side on the shoulder of any road at night. Even though
the presence of the vehicle is there and the lights may be there flashing...,
it is not always easy to see the officer in assist when passing these
situations on roadways.
It is amazing though to me what we can really see
foregoing any light on a bright night. But obviously those nights that
are pitch black are a really consideration for use of other artificial
light. Searching a familiar territory is one thing, but in a deployment
to a foreign ground, there would be serious issues.
Detecting your clues as to someone going into an
area previous would be very difficult at best. Night searches one would
think then would then tend to possibly muddy the water in looking for clues
for a victim. So how are you honing those skills?
One would think that if one was a victim, a headlamp
would be a comforting sight to see.
If one was a victim that was delirious though,
perhaps the reflectives would act more as a night terror to them? Who
knows what then the mindset of the victim would be upon them seeing the
lights especially on horseback and if perhaps they are not aware enough to
realize that someone is out there helping them. Looking as if you were
all a bunch of ghostly figures may not be the most comforting sight to
someone in a sad state of mind. Just a thought.
One would think that searchers are not going to
be using a red laser light as would be a possible sniper.
One would think heretoo, reactions to the lights of
any search party could be greeted with an array of reaction from the victims
and depending on the circumstance of why they are being sought.
Obviously the mount of an MSAR for night work is
going to have to be one of the utmost in trust and much like if it was a
guide dog. Unflappable at any kind of lighting situation.
Possibly the animal leading the blind searcher through situations where it will
see somethig or better still sense something before the rider.
Then add to this noise. Not just the noise of
the night, a sudden noise maybe fromthat of a backfiring vehicle. You
just never know what sounds may give your animal a start. Or yourself
for that matter. Nothing worse than grabbing the reins on a horse that
has been trained for the races when you should be cutting some slack!
Or viceversa depending on your background andhow your mount has been
taught! Your reaction could prompt your mounts most unwanted reaction.
Just my 2c...! For what it is worth.
If there are manufacturers of such products that
would be of benefit to those on this group, I sure wish they would add their
2c so the group could kick back their concerns and needs as well.
Getting these people working together would be a great benefit going a long
way to help so useless products are set aside and money is better spent on
things that are more practical and tactical.
We got our point made when the cowboy
safety helmet was addressed.. keep going in that direction.
--- On Sun, 5/3/09,
msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org <msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
wrote:
From: msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org
<msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: MSAR-Riders Digest, Vol 75, Issue 3
To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Sunday, May 3, 2009, 12:21 PM
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: colors (Barry Wells)
2. Re: colors (Kinch)
3. Re: colors (Jorene Downs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 12:08:09 -0700
From: "Barry Wells" <barrywells@tds.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] colors
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <CAEMKBHKNDMDDPBENEENKENGCKAA.barrywells@tds.net"
ymailto="mailto:CAEMKBHKNDMDDPBENEENKENGCKAA.barrywells@tds.net">CAEMKBHKNDMDDPBENEENKENGCKAA.barrywells@tds.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Mammut Lucido TX1 Headlamp - Best headlamp out there, plus it leaves your
hands free.
From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On
Behalf Of IRVIN
LICHTENSTEIN
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 10:07 AM
To: 'Mounted search and rescue'
Subject: Re: [MSAR] colors
If you decide to use a "night" light red is not the best
color. This is
an urban myth from the user's point of view. Red is one of the hardest
colors to see at night, thus if there are snipers out there you use red for
self protection. Most cockpit lighting is now green or even diffuse
white
or white green. This eliminates the red-green color blind problem, the
color shift effects of red and other colors on the object being looked at,
and normal eyes see best in black and white at reduced light levels. If
you
need a marker beacon use an infrared or blue flasher. Blue is the
second
most visible color after amber according to emergency vehicle lighting
studies but conveys an official presence as amber is used by everybody.
Many vehicles now use blue or green LEDs for gauges.
If you are using the lights for work, like tacking up, loading,
briefing,
investigate the possibility of using a few shielded white lights as area
lights rather than wearing one. Often one or two sets of work lights
can do
the trick where 10 or more headlamps are just a headache. And examine
the
pattern built into the light.
A small spot, like a MiniMag, may be intense but not cover sufficient
area
to be useful. A full size Maglight or Streamlight with variable focus is
good, and the aluminum tube filled with D cells is useful in other ways.
The Litebox uses a sealed beam equivalent to about 8 watts on a lead battery
and can be placed on the ground, the head can be aimed or carried on a
strap. It comes either spot or flood depending on the lamp. Great for
changing tires or lighting a table but heavy to carry. For base camp
there
are units powered by gel cells or little generators. I would expect to
see
fuel cells small enough to be carried soon that run off air and propane for
silent generators and water production. The fire company I run with has
found that the quartz work lights sold for $10.95 to roughly $29.95
outperform the "emergency service" units we used to buy as
long as an
explosion proof lamp is not needed.
Examine your needs and buy what fits 80% of them. It can get
extraordinarily expensive to get next 5 to 10% of utility.
Irv Lichtenstein
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]
On Behalf Of
pennbo@verizon.net
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 12:47 AM
To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [MSAR] headlamps
These are all good points Irv and follow my thoughts too. I do think
every
unit should carry headlamps but not for mounted work. There have been times
on night searches where we were headed into some rough utterly unfamiliar
terrain. We got off and walked the horses. THEY may see well at night but
humans not so much and a light is handy! :-) Also a red lamp is a more
useful tool as it doesn't destroy your night vision like white light does.
(and doesn't cause the cussing a white light does when you forget you have
it on your helmet and you look someone in the face!)
Examine why you want to use a headlamp, bounce the ideas around here
and
amongst your members - and see what you come up with.
Chris
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 12:35:24 -0700
From: "Kinch" <kinch@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] colors
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <EF8C5F62EC1A4AB994B08FE1FD4629AD@homedrk4fcc8hc>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
We use headlamps with red light when working at night. It doesn't cause
either the rider or mount to lose their night vision and it also allows
others to see you coming, both the victim and other searchers. People have a
tendacy to get scared when they hear big things approaching and don't know
exactly where it is. The reason we use the red versus other colours that
don't affect night vision is because when working with topo maps, the blue
light causes the grid lines & rivers / creeks to disappear or be very
hard to see and the same with the green light and tree lines. With the red
light you can still see the roads / trails on the map and all other important
information. The chopper pilots in the military are using green lights for
night vision as this is the same colour as their night vision devices and
they have special night vision maps they use which works very well when using
green. The grunts are still using the red light because it works better with
ordinary topo maps.
Don't forget, it takes on average 5 minutes or more to regain your night
vision after looking at white light. When approaching ground pounders using
white light, keep one eye closed in order to maintain partial night vision.
Joe Kinch
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Wells
To: Mounted search and rescue
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [MSAR] colors
Mammut Lucido TX1 Headlamp - Best headlamp out there, plus
it leaves your hands free.
From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On
Behalf Of IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 10:07 AM
To: 'Mounted search and rescue'
Subject: Re: [MSAR] colors
If you decide to use a "night" light red is not the
best color. This is an urban myth from the user's point of view.
Red is one of the hardest colors to see at night, thus if there are snipers
out there you use red for self protection. Most cockpit lighting is now
green or even diffuse white or white green. This eliminates the
red-green color blind problem, the color shift effects of red and other
colors on the object being looked at, and normal eyes see best in black and
white at reduced light levels. If you need a marker beacon use an
infrared or blue flasher. Blue is the second most visible color after
amber according to emergency vehicle lighting studies but conveys an official
presence as amber is used by everybody. Many vehicles now use blue or
green LEDs for gauges.
If you are using the lights for work, like tacking up, loading,
briefing, investigate the possibility of using a few shielded white lights as
area lights rather than wearing one. Often one or two sets of work
lights can do the trick where 10 or more headlamps are just a headache.
And examine the pattern built into the light.
A small spot, like a MiniMag, may be intense but not cover
sufficient area to be useful. A full size Maglight or Streamlight with
variable focus is good, and the aluminum tube filled with D cells is useful
in other ways. The Litebox uses a sealed beam equivalent to about 8
watts on a lead battery and can be placed on the ground, the head can be
aimed or carried on a strap. It comes either spot or flood depending on the
lamp. Great for changing tires or lighting a table but heavy to carry.
For base camp there are units powered by gel cells or little
generators. I would expect to see fuel cells small enough to be carried
soon that run off air and propane for silent generators and water production.
The fire company I run with has found that the quartz work lights sold for
$10.95 to roughly $29.95 outperform the "emergency service"
units we used to buy as long as an explosion proof lamp is not needed.
Examine your needs and buy what fits 80% of them. It can
get extraordinarily expensive to get next 5 to 10% of utility.
Irv Lichtenstein
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]
On Behalf Of pennbo@verizon.net
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 12:47 AM
To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [MSAR] headlamps
These are all good points Irv and follow my thoughts too. I do
think every unit should carry headlamps but not for mounted work. There have
been times on night searches where we were headed into some rough utterly
unfamiliar terrain. We got off and walked the horses. THEY may see well at night
but humans not so much and a light is handy! :-) Also a red lamp is a
more useful tool as it doesn't destroy your night vision like white light
does. (and doesn't cause the cussing a white light does when you forget you
have it on your helmet and you look someone in the face!)
Examine why you want to use a headlamp, bounce the ideas around
here and amongst your members - and see what you come up with.
Chris
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
MSAR-Riders mailing list
MSAR-Riders@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/msar-riders
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 17:10:58 -0700
From: "Jorene Downs" <Jorene@CEOates.com>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] colors
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <013701c9cb83$a2a13d00$e7e3b700$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Consider that the red light used during a SAR isn't intended to [hopefully]
hide from snipers, but as a color selected to reduce impact on the horse's
night vision while still allowing some rider visibility.
**** The research showed that horses, with their dichromatic vision, cannot
distinguish red. "It's not that they don't 'see' red," says Dr
Carroll.
"They just can't discriminate in the red/green region of the spectrum.
They
are also slightly less sensitive to red light." **** (2008)
Source: <http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/horsevision-142.shtml>
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/horsevision-142.shtml
According to the color wheel examples included in that article, red shades
tend to look rather gray to a horse, which presumably wouldn't cause much of
a problem at night other than the potential for any light to cause casting a
shadow where otherwise a shadow is not expected.
Green may be another option to use at night with horses. I'm accustomed to
using red since I have used red floodlights for many years in foaling stalls
monitoring pregnant mares at night by camera, and the red provides better
lighting for clarity than using infrared cameras.
- - - - - -
Jorene Downs
SAR & CERT
Mounted SAR
www.ceoates.com/msar
From: IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN
If you decide to use a "night" light red is not the best
color. This is an
urban myth from the user's point of view. Red is one of the hardest
colors
to see at night, thus if there are snipers out there you use red for self
protection. [.]
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