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msar-riders - Re: [MSAR] MSAR-Riders Digest, Vol 75, Issue 3 - colors/lighting/reflections

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Subject: Mounted search and rescue

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  • From: "John Neff" <neffj@msn.com>
  • To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [MSAR] MSAR-Riders Digest, Vol 75, Issue 3 - colors/lighting/reflections
  • Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 23:53:19 -0700

A couple comments on night operations and lights in the Navy aboard ships from a retired Navy shipyard worker and husband of a MSAR searcher: all access to the weather decks is through black painted red-lighted passages with light blocks.  The bridge (area where the ship is steered from) uses red lights as does any other room with windows.  Aircraft and helicopter landing areas are lit with amber arc lights.  All personnel on the flight deck areas wear vests with white reflective tape and can be clearly seen.  It is doubtful if the arc lights could be carried while searching on foot or mounted.  Red does truly preserve night vision of searchers and has been used by all branches of the military before night vision devices came into existence.

 

John

 


From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karen Nesbitt
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 4:19 PM
To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [MSAR] MSAR-Riders Digest, Vol 75,Issue 3 - colors/lighting/reflections

 

Just some odd thoughts here....

 

In the topic of colors, the red light vs white, green,yellow, orange, blue etc at night, are not most of you using also reflective clothing or reflective wraps on your horses legs or saddles?  What color light is best then for that along with which lites?  One would assume white or yellow clothing would be a benefit at night along with the reflectives.   With that in mind then, certain lights color could work to obscure things vs making them clearer....So then issue do arrise, safety vs a lesser menu as well.  Glow sticks or glow paint could become useful.  The paint especially to your gear so that even without light, some things can be easier located.  And by day, these marks would not show.  Ever try to find your flashlight at night and wish the thing was on so you could see it better?  Well, that is what I am saying in the reflective paint.  A stripe  of glow paint on that light would help locate it quickly at night as on any gear.

 

Does anyone know of any manufacturer that makes a so called uniform that looks normal in the day but by night would give a florecent glow so as people such as MSAR or SAR etc would not have to pack a ton of gear to their traveliong closet for being on a tight budget as most units are to add these reflectors to their clothes in particular??  Would not that be an awesome peice of equipment to standardize into the industry?  I think clothing like that would be awesome for self protection on not only for searches but for officers who are on night patrol and may be helping a subject and his clothes would then better give his presence in traffic on a dark night when on the shoulder of the road, possibly lessoning their potential of getting hit by oncoming traffic?  Sometimes the red, blue and white lights of the sqauds just are not adequate to see the officers at large as they approach a vehicle on the drivers side on the shoulder of any road at night.   Even though the presence of the vehicle is there and the lights may be there flashing..., it is not always easy to see the officer in assist when passing these situations on roadways.

 

It is amazing though to me what we can really see foregoing any light on a bright night.  But obviously those nights that are pitch black are a really consideration for use of  other artificial light.  Searching a familiar territory is one thing, but in a deployment to a foreign ground, there would be serious issues.

 

Detecting your clues as to someone going into an area previous would be very difficult at best. Night searches one would think then would then tend to possibly muddy the water in looking for clues for a victim. So how are you honing those skills?

 

One would think that if one was a victim, a headlamp would be a comforting sight to see.

If one was a victim that was delirious though, perhaps the reflectives would act more as a night terror to them?  Who knows what then the mindset of the victim would be upon them seeing the lights especially on horseback and if perhaps they are not aware enough to realize that someone is out there helping them. Looking as if you were all a bunch of ghostly figures may not be the most comforting sight to someone in a sad state of mind. Just a thought.

One would think that searchers are not going to be using a red laser light as would be a possible sniper. 

 

One would think heretoo, reactions to the lights of any search party could be greeted with an array of reaction from the victims and depending on the circumstance of why they are being sought.

 

Obviously the mount of an MSAR for night work is going to have to be one of the utmost in trust and much like if it was a guide dog.  Unflappable at any kind of lighting situation.  Possibly the animal leading the blind searcher through situations where it will see somethig  or better still sense something before the rider.

 

Then add to this noise.  Not just the noise of the night, a sudden noise maybe fromthat of a backfiring vehicle.  You just never know what sounds may give your animal a start.  Or yourself for that matter.  Nothing worse than grabbing the reins on a horse that has been trained for the races when you should be cutting some slack!  Or viceversa depending on your background andhow your mount has been taught! Your reaction could prompt your mounts most unwanted reaction.

 

Just my 2c...!  For what it is worth.

 

If there are manufacturers of such products that would be of benefit to those on this group, I sure wish they would add their 2c so the group could kick back their concerns and needs as well.  Getting these people working together would be a great benefit going a long way to help so useless products are set aside and money is better spent on things that are more practical and tactical.

 

We got our point made when the cowboy  safety helmet was addressed.. keep going in that direction. 

 

        Karen

 

 

 



--- On Sun, 5/3/09, msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org <msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:


From: msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org <msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: MSAR-Riders Digest, Vol 75, Issue 3
To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Sunday, May 3, 2009, 12:21 PM

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: colors (Barry Wells)
   2. Re: colors (Kinch)
   3. Re: colors (Jorene Downs)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 12:08:09 -0700
From: "Barry Wells" <barrywells@tds.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] colors
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <CAEMKBHKNDMDDPBENEENKENGCKAA.barrywells@tds.net" ymailto="mailto:CAEMKBHKNDMDDPBENEENKENGCKAA.barrywells@tds.net">CAEMKBHKNDMDDPBENEENKENGCKAA.barrywells@tds.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Mammut Lucido TX1 Headlamp - Best headlamp out there, plus it leaves your
hands free.





From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of IRVIN
LICHTENSTEIN
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 10:07 AM
To: 'Mounted search and rescue'
Subject: Re: [MSAR] colors


  If you decide to use a "night" light red is not the best color.  This is
an urban myth from the user's point of view.  Red is one of the hardest
colors to see at night, thus if there are snipers out there you use red for
self protection.  Most cockpit lighting is now green or even diffuse white
or white green.  This eliminates the red-green color blind problem, the
color shift effects of red and other colors on the object being looked at,
and normal eyes see best in black and white at reduced light levels.  If you
need a marker beacon use an infrared or blue flasher.  Blue is the second
most visible color after amber according to emergency vehicle lighting
studies but conveys an official presence as amber is used by everybody.
Many vehicles now use blue or green LEDs for gauges.



  If you are using the lights for work, like tacking up, loading, briefing,
investigate the possibility of using a few shielded white lights as area
lights rather than wearing one.  Often one or two sets of work lights can do
the trick where 10 or more headlamps are just a headache.  And examine the
pattern built into the light.

  A small spot, like a MiniMag, may be intense but not cover sufficient area
to be useful. A full size Maglight or Streamlight with variable focus is
good, and the aluminum tube filled with D cells is useful in other ways.
The Litebox uses a sealed beam equivalent to about 8 watts on a lead battery
and can be placed on the ground, the head can be aimed or carried on a
strap. It comes either spot or flood depending on the lamp. Great for
changing tires or lighting a table but heavy to carry.  For base camp there
are units powered by gel cells or little generators.  I would expect to see
fuel cells small enough to be carried soon that run off air and propane for
silent generators and water production. The fire company I run with has
found that the quartz work lights sold for $10.95 to roughly $29.95
outperform the  "emergency service" units we used to buy as long as an
explosion proof lamp is not needed.



  Examine your needs and buy what fits 80% of them.  It can get
extraordinarily expensive to get next 5 to 10% of utility.



  Irv Lichtenstein








----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

  From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
pennbo@verizon.net
  Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 12:47 AM
  To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
  Subject: Re: [MSAR] headlamps



  These are all good points Irv and follow my thoughts too. I do think every
unit should carry headlamps but not for mounted work. There have been times
on night searches where we were headed into some rough utterly unfamiliar
terrain. We got off and walked the horses. THEY may see well at night but
humans not so much and a light is handy! :-)  Also a red lamp is a more
useful tool as it doesn't destroy your night vision like white light does.
(and doesn't cause the cussing a white light does when you forget you have
it on your helmet and you look someone in the face!)

  Examine why you want to use a headlamp, bounce the ideas around here and
amongst your members - and see what you come up with.

  Chris


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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 12:35:24 -0700
From: "Kinch" <kinch@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] colors
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <EF8C5F62EC1A4AB994B08FE1FD4629AD@homedrk4fcc8hc>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

We use headlamps with red light when working at night. It doesn't cause either the rider or mount to lose their night vision and it also allows others to see you coming, both the victim and other searchers. People have a tendacy to get scared when they hear big things approaching and don't know exactly where it is. The reason we use the red versus other colours that don't affect night vision is because when working with topo maps, the blue light causes the grid lines & rivers / creeks to disappear or be very hard to see and the same with the green light and tree lines. With the red light you can still see the roads / trails on the map and all other important information. The chopper pilots in the military are using green lights for night vision as this is the same colour as their night vision devices and they have special night vision maps they use which works very well when using green. The grunts are still using the red light because it works better with ordinary topo maps.

Don't forget, it takes on average 5 minutes or more to regain your night vision after looking at white light. When approaching ground pounders using white light, keep one eye closed in order to maintain partial night vision.

Joe Kinch
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Barry Wells
  To: Mounted search and rescue
  Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 12:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [MSAR] colors


   Mammut Lucido TX1 Headlamp - Best headlamp out there, plus it leaves your hands free.




   
  From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN
  Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 10:07 AM
  To: 'Mounted search and rescue'
  Subject: Re: [MSAR] colors


    If you decide to use a "night" light red is not the best color.  This is an urban myth from the user's point of view.  Red is one of the hardest colors to see at night, thus if there are snipers out there you use red for self protection.  Most cockpit lighting is now green or even diffuse white or white green.  This eliminates the red-green color blind problem, the color shift effects of red and other colors on the object being looked at, and normal eyes see best in black and white at reduced light levels.  If you need a marker beacon use an infrared or blue flasher.  Blue is the second most visible color after amber according to emergency vehicle lighting studies but conveys an official presence as amber is used by everybody.  Many vehicles now use blue or green LEDs for gauges. 

     

    If you are using the lights for work, like tacking up, loading, briefing, investigate the possibility of using a few shielded white lights as area lights rather than wearing one.  Often one or two sets of work lights can do the trick where 10 or more headlamps are just a headache.  And examine the pattern built into the light.

    A small spot, like a MiniMag, may be intense but not cover sufficient area to be useful. A full size Maglight or Streamlight with variable focus is good, and the aluminum tube filled with D cells is useful in other ways.  The Litebox uses a sealed beam equivalent to about 8 watts on a lead battery and can be placed on the ground, the head can be aimed or carried on a strap. It comes either spot or flood depending on the lamp. Great for changing tires or lighting a table but heavy to carry.  For base camp there are units powered by gel cells or little generators.  I would expect to see fuel cells small enough to be carried soon that run off air and propane for silent generators and water production. The fire company I run with has found that the quartz work lights sold for $10.95 to roughly $29.95 outperform the  "emergency service" units we used to buy as long as an explosion proof lamp is not needed.

     

    Examine your needs and buy what fits 80% of them.  It can get extraordinarily expensive to get next 5 to 10% of utility.

     

    Irv Lichtenstein

     

     

     


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of pennbo@verizon.net
    Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 12:47 AM
    To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
    Subject: Re: [MSAR] headlamps

     

    These are all good points Irv and follow my thoughts too. I do think every unit should carry headlamps but not for mounted work. There have been times on night searches where we were headed into some rough utterly unfamiliar terrain. We got off and walked the horses. THEY may see well at night but humans not so much and a light is handy! :-)  Also a red lamp is a more useful tool as it doesn't destroy your night vision like white light does. (and doesn't cause the cussing a white light does when you forget you have it on your helmet and you look someone in the face!)

    Examine why you want to use a headlamp, bounce the ideas around here and amongst your members - and see what you come up with.

    Chris





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 17:10:58 -0700
From: "Jorene Downs" <Jorene@CEOates.com>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] colors
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <013701c9cb83$a2a13d00$e7e3b700$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Consider that the red light used during a SAR isn't intended to [hopefully]
hide from snipers, but as a color selected to reduce impact on the horse's
night vision while still allowing some rider visibility.



**** The research showed that horses, with their dichromatic vision, cannot
distinguish red. "It's not that they don't 'see' red," says Dr Carroll.
"They just can't discriminate in the red/green region of the spectrum. They
are also slightly less sensitive to red light." **** (2008)

Source:  <http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/horsevision-142.shtml>
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/horsevision-142.shtml



According to the color wheel examples included in that article, red shades
tend to look rather gray to a horse, which presumably wouldn't cause much of
a problem at night other than the potential for any light to cause casting a
shadow where otherwise a shadow is not expected.



Green may be another option to use at night with horses. I'm accustomed to
using red since I have used red floodlights for many years in foaling stalls
monitoring pregnant mares at night by camera, and the red provides better
lighting for clarity than using infrared cameras.



- - - - - -

Jorene Downs

SAR & CERT

Mounted SAR

www.ceoates.com/msar









From: IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN



If you decide to use a "night" light red is not the best color.  This is an
urban myth from the user's point of view.  Red is one of the hardest colors
to see at night, thus if there are snipers out there you use red for self
protection.   [.]

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