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  • From: "Shoemaker, William H" <wshoemak AT illinois.edu>
  • To: Market Farming <market-farming AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Market-farming] CCD, Imidacloprid, Oh My!
  • Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 23:46:58 +0000

First, Kurt, I'm not directing this at you. I'm just trying to respond to a lot of stuff brought up the last few days.

 

Research is easy when you already know the answer. But that's not science. Science is a methodology, not an ideology, so its very easy for scientists and others to look at research results and decide what they mean when it fits their ideology. The trick is to sort it out and make a decision on what to believe when you have seen enough evidence that alternatives seem extremely unlikely.

 

The case of Colony Collapse disorder has been very difficult. The proposal that neonicotinoids are involved is not new. The problem is that very good scientists have uncovered other evidence that seem germaine to the problem. A new virus has been discovered that seems to be evident in CCD stricken hives. There is the challenge of sorting out the hives which have weakened immune systems from standard problems such as tracheal mites, varroa mites and nosema. This is a problem that is complex. Simple answers feel good, but inaccuracy does no one any favors. The research must continue.

 

The GMO/Round-Up problem is similar. Dr Huber's proposal is far-reaching and broad in its implications. People can easily choose to believe it. It may make them feel justified that his charges condemn something they are firmly committed against. But that does nothing to sort out the many issues raised by his charges. It will not be easy to go through the process of sorting out the many facets of his proposal and independently challenge the many hypotheses his proposal presents. That is why there are few who want to make broad statements about it. It is daunting. I hope he's wrong. But that does not make me supportive of the policies this country has implemented regarding pesticide regulation, GMO regulation and agricultural practices. I simply want better evidence to support, or challenge his charges. I'm interested in learning what is true, and what is not. I'm sure I'll make better decisions once I know more about it.

 

Science is at heart a methodology, nothing more, nothing less. When implemented impartially, it is a powerful tool that can benefit everyone. But it takes people, flawed at best, to conduct research and draw conclusions. That's why I'm not quick to support or reject Dr. Hubers work, or the Harvard scientis who studied neonicitinoid insecticides in honey bees. There many pieces to these puzzles. I just don't think we see the big picture yet. I'm fine with others disagreeing. I just think we should not disparage others over it.

 

Bill

William H. Shoemaker

University of Illinois, Crop Sciences

St Charles Horticulture Research Center

535 Randall Road, St Charles, IL  60174

630-584-7254, wshoemak AT illinois.edu


From: market-farming-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [market-farming-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] on behalf of clearviewfarm AT bluefrog.com [clearviewfarm AT bluefrog.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 4:37 PM
To: Market Farming
Subject: Re: [Market-farming] CCD, Imidacloprid, Oh My!

Inasmuch as I am not a fan of man-made chemicals (I am an organic farmer), we need to diligent in our research to determine the root problems we face.  I found this PowerPoint presentation that cites a case in France that disputes the thinking that neonicotinoids are the problems (see slide #38, especially).  http://www.beespace.uiuc.edu/ebeespace/talks/pdf/johnson-ccd.pdf
More research, unbiased research needs to be done to determine what the real cause(s) of CCD is.


Kurt Forman
Clearview Farm
Palmyra, NY 14522
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.

--- rstewart AT zoomtown.com wrote:

From: Richard Stewart <rstewart AT zoomtown.com>
To: Market Farming <market-farming AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Market-farming] CCD, Imidacloprid, Oh My!
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 16:16:35 -0400

On Apr 7, 2012, at 12:58 AM, Todd Lister wrote:

And so does that exonerate these chemicals in your mind?
Todd


This is a response to several people here and some hate mail I got off-list, not just Todd.

You really don't get it do you?  Where did I defend the chemical?

Seriously, its like driving my head against a wall.  Imidacloprid kills and weakens bees.  This has been known for decades and has been studied to the point that most studies almost seem redundant.  I seriously question the safety, overall, of the chemical, but that is not the issue here.

My criticism is that this study claims that they have found the cause of CCD.  It actually makes this claim and yet the results in the test hives do not even match the definition of CCD.  The study overall is HORRIBLE.  What worries me is that the media (and I hate using that term as it suggests something like "liberal media bias, which I think is absurd) regurgitates this poo on paper as fact.

To me this guy from Harvard is no different than someone loon suggesting Intelligent Design is an equal alternative to Evolution.  Its absurd.  But hey, its a paper from someone at a University with a degree or two so it MUST be gospel.

But lots of people drink the kool-aid willingly because hey, it fits the mold of what they think to be true.  Imidacloprid is bad therefore it has to be the problem.  What if CCD is something completely unknown but we stop because someone like YOU tolerates CRAPPY science?

What appalls me even more is that you'll probably criticize a study that had different results because Bayer funded yet have no problem tolerating a study that appears to have been influence by an Organic special interest company.

This is all coming from a me...a farmer than argues with his dad weekly about converting more conventional ground to chemical free, who uses ZERO treatments on his bees, has taken the entire farm to ZERO pesticides and ZERO petro-chemcial fertilizers, and is, on his own dime, experimenting with establishing methods of solid commercial companion planting for natural pest control and freely disseminating that information at NO charge.

I simply expect better...and for that I am attack.  I am not angry, but I do find it all amazing.

Richard Stewart
Carriage House Farm
North Bend, Ohio

An Ohio Century Farm Est. 1855

(513) 967-1106


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