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- From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
- To: machinist@lists.ibiblio.org
- Subject: [machinist] Hand-filing a square accurately
- Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 02:13:33 -0500
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/hand-filing-square-accurately-280617/
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/hand-filing-square-accurately-280617/index3.html
Thread: Hand-filing a square accurately
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Hand-filing a square accurately
I am studying watchmaking via the British Horological Institute's Distance Learning Program. The practical lessons of the first year involve a lot of filing and precise measurement. I've made some hand levers, a small try square from gauge plate, and a hardened scraper. I scored well on those assignments. But now I'm working on the next assignment and I want to squeeze out some improvement on my accuracy when filing squares.
The assignment requires filing a piece of 1.5mm brass into a piece 1.2mm thick, 25mm wide, 30mm long.
I dealt with the thickness by filing it on a cork pad -- this kept it level with the file, and then I finished it page of sandpaper. I measured the accuracy using my micrometer. It was averaged to 1.20mm, with only 0.02 deviations, so I was happy enough.
The edges, 25x30mm, I feel like there is another tier of accuracy I could get to, but my current techniques don't achieve it.
Here's a range of the tools I employ:
My approximate technique is:
1. Decide on master edge, file it roughly flat.
2. Hold it against my try square edge to see how flat it is.
3. Try to eliminate the high spots using either (a) needle file (b) my stainless stick with some sandpaper glued to it (c) or drag the entire face across a sheet of sandpaper. The needle file seems to round the edge, as the file flexes a bit. If I drag (c) the piece, I have to do it unidirectionally (pull it perpindicular towards me), otherwise when i push it away from my i build up a slightly different angle). The "sandpaper stick" does ok for small patches, but it's tedious to reapply fresh sandpaper after it degrades.
4. Recheck the edge flatness with the try square, repeating step 3-4-3-4 until it seems "straight".
5. Then I start doing the same process with the adjacent ends, using the try square taking data from the "master edge".
6. Finally wrap up the opposite side of the master edge using one of the other sides as the datum for the try square. [this seems most dodgy -- accumulated square errors as i work from master to side to the oppositeMaster]
The results? It's pretty darn square. It's just that the try squares never are light tight and the light crack results are very hard to repeat. I even think that micro grit messes up the reading. The try square has 1mm thick blades, and the base is a heavy ground block. I bought a preisser bevel square with narrow, unnicked edges and i have trouble getting consistent light-tightness measurements using that too though.
I feel like the last few percent perfection on this is limited by me: 1) not using the try square or bevel square well enough (are their tricks tips to using them?) 2) my last bit of micro-finishing work not quite fine enough. (but I think any micro-finishing effort is doomed if i am not exactly where the high spot is, so perhaps issue #1 is most important to deal with first?
Any advice on how to get closer-to-light-tight accuracy and squareness on tasks like this?
Thanks -
First, you could improve your measuring tools. A used but in good condition vintage micrometer would have considerably better accuracy than your vernier calipers. And there are many listed on eBay for not much.
A really square square would also help---like a granite block purpose made and widely available. In the size you need also cheap. Use spotting dye to compare your square to a granite (or steel) square on a small granite surface plate. A small plate is about 25 dollars and will last you your career. Spotting dye will be much more sensitive and repeatable than the "light crack test."
But, most of all grab a few books on metrology and find a metrology mentor--tool and die maker---near you.. There is a ton written about solving this problem. If you work at it some and get some decent guidance, you will get amazing results. You have already demonstrated a fair bit of patience and attention to detail necessary to get to the next level.
Incidentally, I am presently reading Daniels' Watchmaking. Fascinating stuff and a beautifully written and illustrated book I am sure you are familiar with.
Denis -
Gotta love that file handle..
Originally Posted by karavshin
I feel like the last few percent perfection on this is limited by me: 1) not using the try square or bevel square well enough (are their tricks tips to using them?) 2) my last bit of micro-finishing work not quite fine enough. (but I think any micro-finishing effort is doomed if i am not exactly where the high spot is, so perhaps issue #1 is most important to deal with first?
Any advice on how to get closer-to-light-tight accuracy and squareness on tasks like this?
Thanks
You could use engineering blue to mark your high spots, and just work on getting a consistent blue transfer.. If you don't have blue, you can use lamp black.
How good are those squares? Do you have access to a surface plate?
Ray -
Ooops, yeah, I forgot to include that. I was using a small 25mm vernier micomenter to measure the thickness. You reckon I should use a vernier for the width and length, too? Originally Posted by dgfoster
First, you could improve your measuring tools. A used but in good condition vintage micrometer would have considerably better accuracy than your vernier calipers. And there are many listed on eBay for not much.
Love this idea -- makes tons of sense. Thanks. Originally Posted by dgfoster
A really square square would also help---like a granite block purpose made and widely available. In the size you need also cheap. Use spotting dye to compare your square to a granite (or steel) square on a small granite surface plate. A small plate is about 25 dollars and will last you your career. Spotting dye will be much more sensitive and repeatable than the "light crack test."
I have a a book from Mitutoyo that is interesting and "foundations of the mechanical accuracy" (about jig borer development) that is staggering however many orders of magnitude beyond me. ahaha Originally Posted by dgfoster
But, most of all grab a few books on metrology and find a metrology mentor--tool and die maker---near you.. There is a ton written about solving this problem. If you work at it some and get some decent guidance, you will get amazing results. You have already demonstrated a fair bit of patience and attention to detail necessary to get to the next level.
Incidentally, I am presently reading Daniels' Watchmaking. Fascinating stuff and a beautifully written and illustrated book I am sure you are familiar with.
(yes, the Daniels book is similarly staggering)
thanks -
02-21-2014, 10:14 AM
Diamond
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First, a salute to you on pursuing such a challenging discipline.
In addition to the glorious history of British (and Chinese, given your location) horology, you stand heir to perhaps the most powerful, precise, and efficient languages on earth. To that end, I must protest that one cannot file a "square", that is, a two dimensional shape with equal, straight sides each at right angles to its neighbor. If the sizes of the sides of your 3D object were equal, you would be filing stock to a cube shape. Given the unequal sides, you are filing to a cuboid shape. Alternately, a right rectangular prism shape.
I'd 'a let "cube" pass without comment (cuz a cube is 3D), and a "rectangle" might have gone unmentioned (cuz a rectangle has unequal sides), but "square" is wrong on two counts!
Just given you the business. Filing a cuboid is old school, but once you've done it you've figured out a lot of problems and know a lot of techniques. I wonder if the lay public has any appreciation for all the subtleties that this "simple" task requires?
Good luck, and be proud! You're not just filing a square, you're filing a cuboid! -
In other parts of the world it's called learning a traditional craft... Originally Posted by John Welden
What a joke.
So this school is charging you hundreds of pounds so you can file blocks "accurately"? Over here in the USA we call that a scam.
Ray -
I would add to my kit a small angle plate and a surface gauge. Then you can scribe layout lines on both sides of the piece to help guide your filing efforts.
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02-21-2014, 10:37 AM #9
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You should ask over here National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors Message Board what you need is a filing block but these can get expensive and maybe not easily found in your area?
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Yes, use the most accurate tool you can come up with. Whatever dimension you are trying to hit you should use a measuring method one order of magnitude more precise than that dimension. If you are going for .02mm (.0007" for those of us who live in a part of the world where we are so sophisticated as to never be scammed into learning an awesome traditional craft Originally Posted by karavshin
Ooops, yeah, I forgot to include that. I was using a small 25mm vernier micomenter to measure the thickness. You reckon I should use a vernier for the width and length, too?
<>
(yes, the Daniels book is similarly staggering)) you should be using a .0001" micrometer.
I think I would be filing first and then using abrasive films to lap to final squareness and dimension.
Good luck. I hope you post pics of a gleaming, highly accurate block completed to better than requested accuracy. Those same skills will transfer over when you want to make a couple of small precision squares etc from hardened (initially soft) tool steel.
It was really interesting to see the tooling Daniels and others use like special jig borers to elegantly solve, on a very small scale, machining problems that most PMers work to solve an a scale 100 times larger.
Denis -
Hmmm. I couldn't even google to get a decent explanation of what a filing block was. Esslinger said a filing block was a piece of wood to protect metal being held in a vise. A guy on etsy was selling a rubber shoe like thing which is maybe similar to my cork plate for filing the the thickness? Perhaps there is yet another type? Originally Posted by timeseeker
You should ask over here National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors Message Board what you need is a filing block but these can get expensive and maybe not easily found in your area?
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02-21-2014, 10:48 AM #12
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Yes sorry I call them a filing block but it's correct name is a swing tool, Horia is the only company that still makes it, but many older watch co did as well,you can find them from time to time at that online auction. Originally Posted by karavshin
Hmmm. I couldn't even google to get a decent explanation of what a filing block was. Esslinger said a filing block was a piece of wood to protect metal being held in a vise. A guy on etsy was selling a rubber shoe like thing which is maybe similar to my cork plate for filing the the thickness? Perhaps there is yet another type? -
02-21-2014, 10:53 AM
Diamond
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02-21-2014, 11:14 AM #14
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I'm not sure that this would be considered a scam John. I worked in a German machine shop for five years (Hauni Hamburg) and some of the machinist told me that in their apprenticeship program they had to file a vise out of a block of steel. Acme threaded shaft and all. The only part they could "cheat" on was that the nut for the threads was just an engagement pin driven into a groove in the movable jaw. I never got around to asking them how they got a hole to start with but they said it was all done with files. Of course that's not all they are doing but the project was due at the end of their first year. These are some very fine machinist who really know what they are doing. I suspect all that hand work gave them a good "feel" for working metal, measuring and a lot of the tricks of the trade. I read a story once about some prisoners of war who built a working lathe during WW2 from scrap and you can bet they knew something about filing. I would equate this task that Karavshin was given with any seemingly mundane chore given a trainee in any trade that teaches hand eye coordination etc.
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02-21-2014, 11:24 AM #15
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Most of these filing stories end in bullshit, I dont beleive that German vise story at all. A kraut I apprenticed with for a couple years said all they had to file was a little hammer head hammer and a tiny square. All I had to file during mine was an dial indicator holder(aka a big metal mustache) to use for aligning couplings. These stories usually go the way of guys who claim to measure to a thou with a ruler. You have to remember apprentices are paid by the hour and are expected to make the company money, dicking around letting 3-4 kids file something for 2 months would bankrupt a company.
Its a distance course in watchmaking the OP is taking, a mans gotta be given some sort of project to do I guess. Congradualtions on your learning project OP, I myself am fascinated by horology and have been thinking of trying my hand at one of John Wildings project clocks. -
It turns out that a true watchmaker (not a battery changer technichian) has to use hand filing, drilling, and burnishing techniques, to name just a few, throughout his career. It is an absolutely essential part of the job. That is as opposed to watch manufacturing done with high speed, mass producing machines which has its own cool factor. But it is entirely different and difference in the resulting watches are as different as a Ferrari and a VW Jetta. The Jetta is fun to drive and very practical. The Ferrari is on another level.... Originally Posted by hickstick_10
Most of these filing stories end in bullshit, I dont beleive that German vise story at all. A kraut I apprenticed with for a couple years said all they had to file was a hammer and a tiny square.
Its a distance course in watchmaking, a mans gotta be giving some sort of project to do I guess.
Denis -
He he... and apprentices today think that a file is something that you either zip, or upload to a cnc... now that's a real scam. Originally Posted by John Welden
Too bad they don't even bother to show him the proper tools or technique. Scam.
Ray -
02-21-2014, 11:35 AM #18
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With watchmaking and horology I have no doubt as the scale of the work alone allows that, its the machinist (smelting the ore and filing it into a small engine) stories that I hate. The only proof I've ever seen was the japanese POW lathe, and even they had machine tools to complete it. Originally Posted by dgfoster
It turns out that a true watchmaker (not a battery changer technichian) has to use hand filing, drilling, and burnishing techniques, to name just a few, throughout his career. It is an absolutely essential part of the job. That is as opposed to watch manufacturing done with high speed, mass producing machines which has its own cool factor. But it is entirely different and difference in the resulting watches are as different as a Ferrari and a VW Jetta. The Jetta is fun to drive and very practical. The Ferrari is on another level....
Denis -
02-21-2014, 12:04 PM
Diamond
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02-21-2014, 12:08 PM #20
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A filing rest is another way to file accurately. Here is a link to a thread on another forum with detailed info.
Homemade Filing Jig
These used to be very common in the heyday of small plain turning and watchmaker's lathes. I have seen several references in old books where they were used to file squares, hexes, etc. on the end of pieces while they were still mounted in the lathe.
Reply
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/has-anyone-used-swing-tool-filing-86254/
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One tool I have wanted for years is a Swing Tool for filing small parts to accurate size..... has anyone ever used one and do you have pictures or plans of it?
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12-17-2004, 04:49 PM #2
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You sure have my interest on this one. A Swing Tool, I'm sure I haven't a clue of what this is or how it is used. I hope to see a photo but maybe you can tell me/us a little more about its use. Is it motorized?
Once I know what it is I can probably develop a need/want for one - then it is a matter of budget for one. -
Rivett, I vaguely recall seeing something like that, have you checked Chris Heapy's (not sure of spelling) UK website ?
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From Knight's 1881 Mechanical Dictionary:
Swing-tool. ( Machine. ) A holder which swings on horizontal centers, so as to yield to unequal pressure and keep the plate flat against the face of the file.
That is the only reference I can find. No pics. -
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12-17-2004, 07:40 PM #6
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I don't get the swinging cradle part.
Hitting the hardened stop nest couldnt have been too good for the file, even if it was softer than the file. -
The swinging cradle allows the part to follow the natural motion of your arm when filing. It's like shooting pool, it's very hard to shoot straight as your elbow swings in a circle as it pivots from the shoulder. The swinging cradle follows that motion. That is one of the most difficult things to learn in filing, keeping the file at the same angle to the work throughout the stroke. The swing tool solves that.
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12-17-2004, 10:03 PM #8
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I have a couple, a very old round one and a more modern rectangular one. I could measure the dimensions and send you a couple of photos if you'd like. Lovely tools, makes it really easy to reduce odd shaped parts. Both of mine are old enough to not have micrometer markings on the screw, but Horia here in Switzerland still make one which is marked- nice for when you just need to knock off .01mm. Think they're around 1000 USD.
Cheers-
Stew -
12-18-2004, 03:59 AM #9
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Swing tool- the descriptions remind me of an ice skate sharpening tool. It clamps the skate's blade on a swinging arm, which allows the operator to manouver the skate blade across the grinding wheel. The mechanism keeps the blade at the correct height and at the correct angle while allowing horizontal motion toward the wheel, left and right motion, and some spin about a vertical axis.
Seems to me this would be good for filing, since the operator could control the angle of the file anywhere between a straight push and a draw filing angle, plus the file would be kept at a desired height, which could be user adjustable. As well, the file would be kept flat, so rounding and off-square filing would be all but eliminated.
Sounds like a good project- but then where's the fun of learning how to do a fine job with a file by hand [img]smile.gif[/img] -
12-18-2004, 05:52 AM #10
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They are great days when I have opportunity to learn something new. One of the reasons I like this forum is that I have learned plenty from the fellows here. Thanks rivett608 for a good lesson and the photo that really clears up a lot of the mystery.
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S. Lesemann I have emailed Horia about theirs however the price will cause me to have to make one..... could you post or send to me the pictures of yours, the more of these I see the better ideas I can copy..... Thanks
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12-19-2004, 06:59 PM #13
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Well, my more modern one (maybe 20~25 years old) looks just like the pic posted by Rivett608. I have one super grainy catalog pic of Horia's model, the only real difference being that it sits in a massive base rather than clamping into a vice. Will try to get a scan done of it all the same.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/hand-filing-square-accurately-280617/index3.html
Thread: Hand-filing a square accurately
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02-22-2014, 06:54 AM #41
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The real heavy artillery when it comes BS are the wine tasters, the audiophiles are solid performers for the silver medal tho. Originally Posted by Mcgyver
On the BS quotient, you guys haven't got to the heavy weights:
- hot rodders
- audiophiles
Ray -
02-22-2014, 10:50 AM #43
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He had a machine tool, this threads about precision hand filing of machine parts, tools and the people who fib about doing it. What part of his Indian did Burt file precisely by hand? Originally Posted by dazz
When you achieve as much as he did with the little he had, I'll start to pay attention to what you say.
Thanks for coming out. -
If you want to see some nice hand filing, did you look at the video posted by Janvanruth above? No BS there. No aids to filing like the very cool swing block mentioned above. And amazing accuracy that would make a lot of people happy if they did the same with their surface grinder. I guess it really can be done. Just maybe some of those "old masters' stories" could be true. Originally Posted by hickstick_10
He had a machine tool, this threads about precision hand filing of machine parts, tools and the people who lie about doing it. What part of his Indian did Burt file precisely by hand?
Thanks for coming out.
Denis
Denis -
I've used a Horia filling tool. Originally Posted by karavshin
Found a thread on swing tools. Has anyone used a "Swing Tool" for filing?
Horia sells them for the bargain price of a thousand Swiss Francs. Oops
What was great about it besides the swing was that the center section could be adjusted for the thickness or more importantly, for the thinness of really thin pieces that you couldn't clamp in a vise. Greg. -
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02-22-2014, 11:41 AM #47
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Look at the dial closely at the end, hes dancing around 0.003. Not "surface grinder accuracy". Its a demonstration of flat filing, neat enough to make the hobbiests here rave but enough to make me sad that it takes a "Japanese master machinist" to show what so many here talk about. Its not an entire vice, and no mention if its a part that has to fit into anything, and I really doubt thats going into a motorcycle. Kinda neat, but I'm not going to gild the lily over it. Originally Posted by dgfoster
If you want to see some nice hand filing, did you look at the video posted by Janvanruth above? No BS there. No aids to filing like the very cool swing block mentioned above. And amazing accuracy that would make a lot of people happy if they did the same with their surface grinder. I guess it really can be done. Just maybe some of those "old masters' stories" could be true.
Denis
Denis
Santa is also not real.John Welden likes this. -
02-22-2014, 03:33 PM #48
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Originally Posted by hickstick_10
Look at the dial closely at the end, hes dancing around 0.003. Not "surface grinder accuracy". Its a demonstration of flat filing, neat enough to make the hobbiests here rave but enough to make me sad that it takes a "Japanese master machinist" to show what so many here talk about. Its not an entire vice, and no mention if its a part that has to fit into anything, and I really doubt thats going into a motorcycle. Kinda neat, but I'm not going to gild the lily over it.
Santa is also not real.
Are you a dick in real life or just play one on PM???I just asked my mother and she said Santa is real!hickstick_10 and adama like this. -
02-22-2014, 04:13 PM #49
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not surface grinder accuracy?
I dont speak japanese but where was it said that it was a Japanese master machinist? Originally Posted by hickstick_10
Look at the dial closely at the end, hes dancing around 0.003. Not "surface grinder accuracy". Its a demonstration of flat filing, neat enough to make the hobbiests here rave but enough to make me sad that it takes a "Japanese master machinist" to show what so many here talk about. Its not an entire vice, and no mention if its a part that has to fit into anything, and I really doubt thats going into a motorcycle. Kinda neat, but I'm not going to gild the lily over it.
Santa is also not real.
It was a apprentice shown in training.
What accuracy does a surfacegrinder have?
0.001mm?
I think 0.003 mm is pretty impressive.
but then again, i am just a hobbiest -
02-22-2014, 04:49 PM #50
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Cling to the fantasy, most milled surfaces wouldn't even make that indicater quiver, let alone a surface grinder. I dont know if that indicator is metric or imperial. Its a neat video, and I admit to being hyperbolic throwing around the "master machinist" handle. I beleive a guy can file a fairly small surface fairly accurately like in the OPs case of horology, and his little squares and watch parts. I even said so back in post #18.
Its the stories where entire machine parts are made that make me skeptical. Stories about entire vises, large squares, motorcycle parts for land speed records and entire machine tools are bullshit. You dig deep enough theres always some sort of machine used.
But once you hear the stories enough, they're exactly like Santa Clause.
One of the first shops I worked at was a real dump, boss was mean and he had hired an old machinist who LOVED to treat the underlings like garbage and also to drink. I worked a weekend shift with him so it was mostly just me, maybe another welder and him. I would end up cleaning his machines for him, bringing him stock, making coffee and all sorts of other crap. His favourite task was to have me debure his parts for him while re raved on and on about the parts/money he made, what he could do with a file and how good I had it as an apprentice. Claimed up and down he could file to a tenth, maybe a half thou if he was drunk (which was often).
Long story short this went on for about 6 months till the welder couldn't stand to see the $hit I had to shovel for this guy and he went and told the boss everything when he showed up one saturday. To bad the master machinist had booze on his breath when the boss came to give him a talking to so he gave him a test. Handed a peice of around 1 inch keystock to him and a 0.75 x 3 round drop from the scrap bin, said he wanted a square hole filed through that stock to within 0.0005 since he was drunk.
It was mostly to give the guy something to do so he could work the booze off and to punish him, but he couldn't do it, he never even tried. Packed his tools up and quit before he had to face what a BSer he was. I stopped beleiving in the filing stories ever since then and it always amazes me how people will cling to the stories and how much they want to beleive in it.
I do beleive prior to the industrial revolution people had to file intricate shapes and machine parts, back in the 18th and 19th century. -
02-22-2014, 04:53 PM
Diamond
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02-22-2014, 05:11 PM #52
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If you could give a fuck about it why you here commenting on it? Yes it is super easy and with the swing tool even someone like you could do it! Originally Posted by John Welden
The thing I hate about the whole precision filling deal is people act like it's super special and hard. Who gives a fuck? It's a skill you can learn with practice. It's not amazing in any way. It's just another way to make unwanted material go away. People have pretty much quit using the technique because other more efficient methods have been figured out. -
what, you weren't on the edge your seat waiting to find out what the grumpy guys thought? Originally Posted by timeseeker
If you could give a fuck about it why you here commenting on it? Yes it is super easy and with the swing tool even someone like you could do it!
timeseeker likes this.
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02-22-2014, 05:18 PM #54
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He reminds me of my old man....hates the world, you could hand him a million dollars and it would piss him off! Originally Posted by Mcgyver
what, you weren't on the edge your seat waiting to find out what the grumpy guys thought? -
02-22-2014, 05:18 PM
Diamond
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02-22-2014, 05:59 PM #56
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I can tell that very few of the respondents are horologists, which is critical to the OP.
Most of the clocks I work on as a professional antiquarian horologist are at least 200 years old and were predominantly handmade. Knowing how to file and use a piercing saw are essential skills when making or remaking one-off parts for old clocks, there is no good substitute. Has absolutely nothing to do with machining and everything to do with acquiring the hand and eye skills to be a good horologist. Don't bother with the NAWCC, they don't know anything about real horology.
Regards,
Rich, British trained and snobby about it
Richard McCarty, Conservation and Restoration of Antique Clocks -
02-22-2014, 06:09 PM
Diamond
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02-22-2014, 06:55 PM #58
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I think it interesting to look back at the twists and turns of this thread. First the idea of teaching precision filing was dismissed as a scam.
Originally Posted by John Welden
What a joke.
So this school is charging you hundreds of pounds so you can file blocks "accurately"? Over here in the USA we call that a scam. Originally Posted by John Welden
Yeah sounds likes he really learning a traditional craft.
Too bad they don't even bother to show him the proper tools or technique. Scam.Then the "vise dtory was dismissed as not believable. Originally Posted by hickstick_10
Most of these filing stories end in bullshit, I dont beleive that German vise story at all. A kraut I apprenticed with for a couple years said all they had to file was a little hammer head hammer and a tiny square. All I had to file during mine was an dial indicator holder(aka a big metal mustache) to use for aligning couplings. These stories usually go the way of guys who claim to measure to a thou with a ruler. You have to remember apprentices are paid by the hour and are expected to make the company money, dicking around letting 3-4 kids file something for 2 months would bankrupt a company.
Its a distance course in watchmaking the OP is taking, a mans gotta be given some sort of project to do I guess. Congradualtions on your learning project OP, I myself am fascinated by horology and have been thinking of trying my hand at one of John Wildings project clocks.
Again dismissed as unbelievable. Originally Posted by John Welden
No it's true! And the Wright brothers made a crankshaft for their engine on a drill press. They only used chisels and files..... ITS TRUE!!!!
So funny how humans can't resist believing in complete bullshit if it makes them feel good.
I truly love German MASTER machinist filing stories.
then a video of someone doing an amazing filing job is shown and the fact that the guy is doing such fine work is termed "sad." And it is implied it si a fairy tale on par with belief in Santa (I guess that is why Santa is thrown into the mix.) And the comment is made that the master filer is making a .003 (inch) error is stated and it is stated that the DI is "dancing around. Any one who actually watched the vid can see it is a metric indicator and the indicator is very nearly dead flat except for one small area where it does deviate by .003MM. Furthermore, there is no suggestion that the person doing this incredible job considers it finished. Given the fact that the filer has done what he has demonstrated, itwould be very reasonab le to figure he went on to bring that surface even closer to absolute perfection. .003mm is .00012 inches BTW. So, gotta be careful who you believe as is mentioned in the next quote. Originally Posted by hickstick_10
Look at the dial closely at the end, hes dancing around 0.003. Not "surface grinder accuracy". Its a demonstration of flat filing, neat enough to make the hobbiests here rave but enough to make me sad that it takes a "Japanese master machinist" to show what so many here talk about. Its not an entire vice, and no mention if its a part that has to fit into anything, and I really doubt thats going into a motorcycle. Kinda neat, but I'm not going to gild the lily over it.
Santa is also not real.
Originally Posted by hickstick_10
Cling to the fantasy, most milled surfaces wouldn't even make that indicater quiver, let alone a surface grinder. I dont know if that indicator is metric or imperial. Its a neat video, and I admit to being hyperbolic throwing around the "master machinist" handle. I beleive a guy can file a fairly small surface fairly accurately like in the OPs case of horology, and his little squares and watch parts. I even said so back in post #18.
Its the stories where entire machine parts are made that make me skeptical. Stories about entire vises, large squares, motorcycle parts for land speed records and entire machine tools are bullshit. You dig deep enough theres always some sort of machine used.
But once you hear the stories enough, they're exactly like Santa Clause.
One of the first shops I worked at was a real dump, boss was mean and he had hired an old machinist who LOVED to treat the underlings like garbage and also to drink. I worked a weekend shift with him so it was mostly just me, maybe another welder and him. I would end up cleaning his machines for him, bringing him stock, making coffee and all sorts of other crap. His favourite task was to have me debure his parts for him while re raved on and on about the parts/money he made, what he could do with a file and how good I had it as an apprentice. Claimed up and down he could file to a tenth, maybe a half thou if he was drunk (which was often).
Long story short this went on for about 6 months till the welder couldn't stand to see the $hit I had to shovel for this guy and he went and told the boss everything when he showed up one saturday. To bad the master machinist had booze on his breath when the boss came to give him a talking to so he gave him a test. Handed a peice of around 1 inch keystock to him and a 0.75 x 3 round drop from the scrap bin, said he wanted a square hole filed through that stock to within 0.0005 since he was drunk.
It was mostly to give the guy something to do so he could work the booze off and to punish him, but he couldn't do it, he never even tried. Packed his tools up and quit before he had to face what a BSer he was. I stopped beleiving in the filing stories ever since then and it always amazes me how people will cling to the stories and how much they want to beleive in it.
I do beleive prior to the industrial revolution people had to file intricate shapes and machine parts, back in the 18th and 19th century.Except in the case of the OP and other horologists where it is an skill essential to their trade. Originally Posted by John Welden
The thing I hate about the whole precision filling deal is people act like it's super special and hard. Who gives a fuck? It's a skill you can learn with practice. It's not amazing in any way. It's just another way to make unwanted material go away. People have pretty much quit using the technique because other more efficient methods have been figured out.
So now we are at a point where we no longer claim the stories of the traditional apprentices have to be BS because filing like that is impossible to saying well anyone can learn to do that so it really is not special. Originally Posted by John Welden
I didn't say it was super easy.
It's just another skill you can learn with some practice. Who cares? If you need to learn it, learn it.
Anyway, interesting to follow the thread. I think it helps see the pattern of the thread to recap it.
I really appreciate the fact that someone posted the link to someone who can file better than anyone I have ever seen and am likely to ever see. And to the OP: "good on you!"
Denis -
When i was serving my apprenticeship as a fitter we had to do six months in our first year away from work in the training centre. The first three months were dedicated to bench fitting, that is marking out, hacksawing , and many hours of filing. We were tested every week and as we went the tolerances tightened up. During the last month the tolerance was 0.02mm normally, squareness was also tested.
Most of the students didn't care about bench fitting and some of the younger instructors didn't want to teach it and so didn't. But i got a kick out of the work, and still think the work you can do with simple hand tools is amazing if you persevere.
Thread: Hand-filing a square accurately
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/hand-filing-square-accurately-280617/index4.html
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See what happens when you question a youthful fantasy??, How'd this go from a guy making anything with a file to filing one small flat surface? I cant ruin all your guys chilhood dreams. SO far in the lost art of filing metal completely by freehand.....................
Entire Vise=bullshit
Motorcycle parts in land speed record=bullshit
Japanese POW lathe=bullshit
Japanese guy filing with the accuracy of a surface grinder=bullshit
Santa Clause=bullshit
If its a metric indicator he's using good on him, I cant tell with this screen or my eyesight. Like I said I think its neat, but we've went from debunking the filing of complex machine parts to filing one tiny flat surface which STILL wouldn't compare with most milled surface. And a few guys whos clinging to this beleif like its some sort of idol.
But il cede the flat filing argument to you, you have proven someone can file a small surface somewhat flat, thats why I beleive the horologists can get away with it, and they deal small surfaces.-
Yes, Denis, I pretty much agree with where you are coming from, with respect to the hammer boy, but you've got to remember he's a serial troll... he throws out lines, hoping to hook something. Personally, I like the interaction and banter. Adds a bit of fun to the day. Originally Posted by dgfoster
So now we are at a point where we no longer claim the stories of the traditional apprentices have to be BS because filing like that is impossible to saying well anyone can learn to do that so it really is not special.
And while on that topic...
Missing a "W" I think... Originally Posted by Rich McCarty
Actually, that's antiquarian horologist. Look it up if you can.
Ray -
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Yes.. at least a few million.. JW's "sounds better" was closer to the mark. Aside from the mystical hooey that attaches to terms like "master" The craftsmanship and skill that shows up in some of these old clocks is just endlessly impressive. Originally Posted by jpevner
I think they've probably heard that joke a few million times already.
Ray -
02-22-2014, 10:30 PM #65
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Here's my apprentice vise made with nothing but files, hacksaw, oxy-acetlyene, drill press, thread tap and cadmium plating tank, the plating looks a bit tired after 28 years but the finish of the steel was "Draw filed", no polishing allowed. I don't think it's the vise most people here are expecting however. Components were stamped and jealously guarded to stop the incompetent students pilfering your better parts
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02-23-2014, 01:15 AM #66
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I'd wager a file or two was used constructing Chucky here. But it was made before the American Revolution and the guy and his son spent 6 years making it and 2 other similar ones. This falls more into horology
If you watch the entire documentary, even the old masters weren't above bullshitting people, pay attention to the chess player automaton. Its a good documentary worth the watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OAA7yn_Km8 -
02-23-2014, 01:33 AM
Diamond
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I can see why your instructor would have chosen such a piece to introduce his students to a number of basic skills which were probably all new to you and your classmates. I can imagine your sense of accomplishment and pride in completing this piece as a young newbie. I hope you have it sitting somewhere in view so that you can see it often and smile thinking back on where you were then and what you know now. Nowadays there are precious few young people who would have a clue as to how to make such a piece. Even then you were "elite" knowing how to silver solder and handle a file. Not a bad thing to point out to the grans -- maybe they will want you to show them how to make or fix something. Originally Posted by SAG 180
Here's my apprentice vise made with nothing but files, hacksaw, oxy-acetlyene, drill press, thread tap and cadmium plating tank, the plating looks a bit tired after 28 years but the finish of the steel was "Draw filed", no polishing allowed. I don't think it's the vise most people here are expecting however. Components were stamped and jealously guarded to stop the incompetent students pilfering your better parts
Thanks for posting it.
Denis -
02-23-2014, 01:53 AM #69
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We had a similar thing but it was done at work - I hated every minute of it but I have had a few occasions where a key had to be fitted out in the bush and it has served its usefulness. I still have my test square out of cast iron 50 years later. Originally Posted by ronan
When i was serving my apprenticeship as a fitter we had to do six months in our first year away from work in the training centre. The first three months were dedicated to bench fitting, that is marking out, hacksawing , and many hours of filing. We were tested every week and as we went the tolerances tightened up. During the last month the tolerance was 0.02mm normally, squareness was also tested.
Most of the students didn't care about bench fitting and some of the younger instructors didn't want to teach it and so didn't. But i got a kick out of the work, and still think the work you can do with simple hand tools is amazing if you persevere. -
So, is anybody going to post some good pics of a micrometer-adjusted swing block? I wonder how the elevating mechanism is actually setup. I can guess, but often a mature design has a few refinements not easily imagined. Sure would be nice to see some clear pics and, ideally, an exploded view. Originally Posted by rustytool
I've used a Horia filling tool.
What was great about it besides the swing was that the center section could be adjusted for the thickness or more importantly, for the thinness of really thin pieces that you couldn't clamp in a vise. Greg.
Denis. -
The conrods. There are a few photos here including Burt's offerings to the god of speed, the failed parts and his workshop/shed. Originally Posted by hickstick_10
He had a machine tool, this threads about precision hand filing of machine parts, tools and the people who fib about doing it. What part of his Indian did Burt file precisely by hand?
Thanks for coming out.
Click the left arrow.
A quote from the book:
“After breaking fifty standard connecting rods, Burt spent five months carving his own out of an old Ford truck axle – that was the last of the trouble, over twenty years ago.”
He was 69 years old when this book was written & that year he ran 190.07 MPH one way! -
02-23-2014, 03:10 AM #72
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Originally Posted by dgfoster
I can see why your instructor would have chosen such a piece to introduce his students to a number of basic skills which were probably all new to you and your classmates. I can imagine your sense of accomplishment and pride in completing this piece as a young newbie. I hope you have it sitting somewhere in view so that you can see it often and smile thinking back on where you were then and what you know now. Nowadays there are precious few young people who would have a clue as to how to make such a piece. Even then you were "elite" knowing how to silver solder and handle a file. Not a bad thing to point out to the grans -- maybe they will want you to show them how to make or fix something.
Thanks for posting it.
Denis
That's exactly the intent and feelings generated by the training Denis. This was an apprenticeship as an electronics/telecommunications technician and we made that vise in a two week basic introduction to metalwork before going onto another week of wood work training. -
02-23-2014, 03:36 AM #73
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Conrods have 2 round holes in them,2 very precise round holes............................and Burt has a heavily cannibalized Myford lathe. You expect me to beleive he bored them out and faced them with a hammer, chisel and file? You guys are making me depressed now reminding me of the denial I went through when I found out Santa wasn't real (so many conflicting emotions), even I want to beleive these stories but the murder weapon has been photographed!!! Originally Posted by dazz
The conrods. There are a few photos here including Burt's offerings to the god of speed, the failed parts and his workshop/shed.
Click the left arrow.
A quote from the book:
“After breaking fifty standard connecting rods, Burt spent five months carving his own out of an old Ford truck axle – that was the last of the trouble, over twenty years ago.”
He was 69 years old when this book was written & that year he ran 190.07 MPH one way!
Theres almost always a machine tool lurking behind these stories, like a cruel older brother waiting to tell you the truth about the Easter bunny.
When you think about it, the filing stories are passed on the same way, through anecdotes and fables often passed on by people we like, respect or admire. Its really tough to think they might have jerked your chain.John Welden likes this. -
02-23-2014, 03:46 AM #74
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The thread was called hand-filing a square accurately. Originally Posted by hickstick_10
See what happens when you question a youthful fantasy??, How'd this go from a guy making anything with a file to filing one small flat surface?
So it started out about a guy filing one small flat surface.
And thats what its returned to.
I believe it was you in #18 that introduced the japanese pow lathe.
So it was you who lead the thread astray.
Japan went metric 1885 1921.
Ofcourse the indicator is metric and 0.001
Anything else would be regarded dishonourable in Japan. -
02-23-2014, 04:13 AM #75
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Javanruth I take no pleasure it wrecking these AWESOME filing stories, but some of them are fairy tails.
And way back at the first page I said I beleived its doable, due to horologists working to a smaller scale, I also beleived the german I apprenticed with when he said all he filed was a little hammer and a tiny square, did not beleive the drunk who said he could file to 0.0005 when plastered. Theres a big difference in my beleif threshold when it comes to the size of the flat surface filed, cut some metal you'l find out.Also mentioned I had no clue about the dial indicatorWith watchmaking and horology I have no doubt as the scale of the work alone allows that, its the machinist (smelting the ore and filing it into a small engine) stories that I hate., I didn't know its resolution just made a WAG it still isn't surface ground accuracy, not even good milling machine accuracy.I dont know if that indicator is metric or imperial.
Now your just trying to pick at semantics, like a kid using the cookie crumbs and milk residue as proof of their favourite fat man. You guys are clinging to this fantasy like I've just mocked a reliquary filled with slivers of the true cross. The difference is I'm using proof in plain sight to show you guys the BS (Burts lathe, POW machine shops other lathe mentioned in the article, dial indicator actually moves). I want to beleive these stories to, but the damning evidence is there.
And you know the biggest proof I have damning precision filing? They invented the scraper!
Renounce your false idol!
I admit to stirring the pot a bit, but John was going to join this thread regardless, he loves these kind of discussions. But I've lost all my steam being such a prick, I wont quash anymore of these wistful filing fantasies.
Watch that documentary I posted a link to, theres a perfect example of a peice of machinework that I DESPERATELY wanted to be real, only to have its secret unvieled to my abject horror and dismay. -
02-23-2014, 05:09 AM #76
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What gave you the impression that i believe any of those stories? Originally Posted by hickstick_10
Javanruth I take no pleasure it wrecking these AWESOME filing stories, but some of them are fairy tails.
And way back at the first page I said I beleived its doable, due to horologists working to a smaller scale, I also beleived the german I apprenticed with when he said all he filed was a little hammer and a tiny square, did not beleive the drunk who said he could file to 0.0005 when plastered. Theres a big difference in my beleif threshold when it comes to the size of the flat surface filed, cut some metal you'l find out. Also mentioned I had no clue about the dial indicator , I didn't know its resolution just made a WAG it still isn't surface ground accuracy, not even good milling machine accuracy.
Now your just trying to pick at semantics, like a kid using the cookie crumbs and milk residue as proof of their favourite fat man. You guys are clinging to this fantasy like I've just mocked a reliquary filled with slivers of the true cross. The difference is I'm using proof in plain sight to show you guys the BS (Burts lathe, POW machine shops other lathe mentioned in the article, dial indicator actually moves). I want to beleive these stories to, but the damning evidence is there.
And you know the biggest proof I have damning precision filing? They invented the scraper!
Renounce your false idol!
I admit to stirring the pot a bit, but John was going to join this thread regardless, he loves these kind of discussions.
As a matter of fact i never heard any of them.
I have no idols, let alone false ones.
Scrapers werent invented because of the inadequacy of files.
They couldnt have been because they preceded the file....
In fact in the clip the japanese gentleman at the end is using his file as a scraper. -
Don't lay your vernier or any other measuring tool on a sheet of sand paper ever! Equally find a way to keep your tools from going rusty.
Above all as things get smaller - measurements get more precise you need to work in a cleaner environment. If thats your work bench stick some shelves up behind it make some space and have some were to lay stuff down thats nice and flat.
As to that filling thing, if you look at the price you can get a nice fully hydraulic surface grinder of the bay for that kinda coin! With just a couple of hours you will easily be grinding smaller bits in the sub ten micron range. But the above posters are correct, you can not do that with verniers or any other measuring tool coated in grit or rust. -
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Cool stuff. What was the woodworking equivalent of making the vise for metal??? Originally Posted by SAG 180
That's exactly the intent and feelings generated by the training Denis. This was an apprenticeship as an electronics/telecommunications technician and we made that vise in a two week basic introduction to metalwork before going onto another week of wood work training.
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Yes, my filing station bench is revolting. I hate the grit everywhere--it's maddening. Originally Posted by adama
Don't lay your vernier or any other measuring tool on a sheet of sand paper ever! Equally find a way to keep your tools from going rusty.
Regarding rusty tools.... You have no idea. There is something about my touch that is severely corrosive to metal. It's no joke. At my other workshop we make bicycle frames. I can touch a tube and it has rusted fingerprints 6 hours later. Other guys in the shop have no affect. And it's not like my hands are noticeably wet with sweat or something.
It really sucks when, for example, I forgot to wipe down my vintage japanese micrometer with my anti corrosive grease stuff the other night. Next day the thing was rusted all over
Have found other threads on PM about this subject. The general answer was 'fire the guy, there's no solution'
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/hand-filing-square-accurately-280617/index5.html
Thread: Hand-filing a square accurately
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02-23-2014, 08:07 AM #81
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02-23-2014, 08:54 AM #82
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Just making a wood box for a whet stone from one piece of timber with chisels and a saw, no planing or sandpaper allowed. Originally Posted by karavshin
Cool stuff. What was the woodworking equivalent of making the vise for metal??? -
As to the rusty finger thing, its a by product of your sweat. Might be a great time to try washing your hands before work and applying a barrier cream.
Once you have been in this game long enough, washed your hands enough times in something that drys the skin a bit it will be less of a issue.
As to keeping the bench clean, get a little vacume like a Henry. They run nice and quiet and its easy to just switch it on and clear the bench in a few seconds. All the more so if all your tools are not kept laying on it. -
02-23-2014, 09:25 AM #84
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I went to watchmaking school and did the filing exercises, and taught it as well and made my students do it. Even though it's rare for a normal watchmaker to ever actually file something (restoration of antique pieces would be an exception and few go that route), it's useful to learn the skill because it helps develop the dexterity necessary later on when adjusting and fitting parts in a watch.
I used to do restoration, and now make prototypes, and though I have machines that can pretty much do anything I might need to do with a file, sometimes it's just quicker to grab a file and do it than set up the machine.
I have to agree with some of the sentiments that arduous filing tasks are needless when learning the machining trade, though. It's just not relevant anymore, and if someone wanted to go down a path where it was needed or useful, they will learn it on their own quickly enough. Still, there's no harm spending a few hours with an instructor learning to file a bit. If I saw that as part of a curriculum I wouldn't call it a scam. -
Wow, never heard of 'Barrier Cream' before. Just ordered a tube of 3M Cavilon barrier cream from Amazon...will be fantastic if that helps. thanks Originally Posted by adama
As to the rusty finger thing, its a by product of your sweat. Might be a great time to try washing your hands before work and applying a barrier cream.
Once you have been in this game long enough, washed your hands enough times in something that drys the skin a bit it will be less of a issue.
As to keeping the bench clean, get a little vacume like a Henry. They run nice and quiet and its easy to just switch it on and clear the bench in a few seconds. All the more so if all your tools are not kept laying on it. -
Filing is an art you have to learn. I'm suprised the OP only had to file a rectangular piece.
Typical first project is a pentagon shape that is filed to fit inside a pentagon shaped hole
so you have to press it through by hand.
After that they graduate the student to floor sweeping. After a month of sweeping
instruction they send them on to pencil sharpening.
Has to be done the right way, ya know. -
02-23-2014, 01:28 PM #87
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As far as hand skills in metal trades, an awful lot of it is developing skepticism.
If, like many on this site, we grew up by the age of 5 or so raiding our dad's and grandfathers tool drawers and shops, taking the family antique clock apart, and building (or attempting) to build things like vehicles and firearms before we were very far into grade school, it is hard to remember where we developed an appreciation for metrics and inspection. Only whenever forced to, of course, but it happened routinely and was reinforced. How do you know if something is flat, if it meets a tolerance (sized and shaped well enough to perform, with durability), if it "fits". Maybe later, is it also "fair" and "attractive".
This is the type of awareness that hand exercises on "silly" building and fitting tasks try to cram into a year or so for someone who did not grow up manipulating materials to make things out of.
One of the first things a traditional woodworking apprentice was responsible for was smashing up the glue cakes, and keeping the glue pot going throughout the day while learning other tasks. From there, it was pretty much like hand filing: (handsawing) rough planks to rough length for journeymen, later handplaning to size and thickness, in between practicing (hand) cutting joints in scrap like dovetails, mortise and tenon, etc.Originally Posted by karavshin View Post
Cool stuff. What was the woodworking equivalent of making the vise for metal???
If you are at all interested in traditional woodworking trades, there is a book called _The Joiner and Cabinet Maker_ edited and written by Christopher Schwarz. The original was written in the 1830's or 40's as a true account of a fictional apprentice starting at day one. The modern book includes exerpts from other contemporary apprentice accounts by real people. One notes how much drink was required to be provided in an English shop to the journeymen: Every time a new job was to be learned, the apprentice and his father had to put up a shilling, go down to the pub and buy the shop a round to bring back. If he did not, no one would teach him anything, he would not be allowed to commence the next piece and his education would essentially stop. It was apparently relentless in the shops that tolerated it.
In TJaC, there are 3 projects of increasing sophistication that the apprentice completes as he becomes more proficient. Christopher Schwarz decides to build them just as a 19th C apprentice in the English system would have. Starting with rough planks, and strictly hand tools. As he begins, at first his 8 yr old daughter follows him around each evening to the shop but soon grows bored. When he first starts dovetailing and chopping the waste, she demands to participate. With trepidation, he guides her with the chisel at first, but she is soon doing fine on her own. So she is included in the projects for the rest of the book.
smt -
A friend who apprenticed in Germany told me that for the first 6 months he was not allowed to touch a machine. Long days with files and chisels doing apparently pointless stuff like file a round bar to a square. Then to an Octagon and finally round again. It seems that this may have been a test of one's ability to follow instructions and dedication. Today some craft unions in this country are doing something similar by requiring a "pre-apprenticeship". Before they spend 6 months or a year teach the craft only to have the apprentice decide that he doesn't want to learn this stuff and get dirt on his hands they are requiring him to spend 6 mos or more as a grunt, toting this and fetching that and generally doing the worst shit they can find. If the apprentice sticks it out then classes start. Maybe there was a bit of that in the old days too.
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To see what kind of work watchmakers do on such a simple thing as a watch hand, here is a link to a video. This is one of ten roughly five videos that detail this work. Part 02 of 10 - Finishing a Set of Hands by Roger Smith - YouTube
Smith studied under Geo Daniels recognized as one of the premier watchmakers. Smith continues in that tradition. He notes that the term "watchmaker' is used quite broadly. Most people do not truly make watches in as much as they buy Swiss movements and fit them into a case. He is one of the few who actually makes his movements, dials, hands, cases--the whole shebang.
If you search Youtube on George Daniels and Roger Smith watchmaker, you will find a number of interesting videos. You will see that there is much handwork in custom (as opposed to production watchmaking or case fitting) watchmaking. Readers be forewarned---they are British.
Denis -
02-23-2014, 04:52 PM
Diamond
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So whats your point? Everyone should run things by you first to see if you're going to find it a big deal before posting? Why post anything? Taken to the nth degree, by that logic painting the Sistine chapel ceiling isn't a big deal if you're a good enough painter...that doesn't mean its not interesting to look at and learn about or admire for the rest of us. Originally Posted by John Welden
I could easily do what he's doing to that hand. I routinely work on much smaller parts and do much more delicate work. It's not really that big of a deal if you do it a lot.
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02-23-2014, 05:10 PM
Diamond
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I don't think the point was whether or not you find the work impressive, John. Neither is whether a guy with your experience and talent could do this. Having seen some of your work, I'd be surprised if you couldn't recreate this (except for the Cd plating, which might be hard to do today). SAG 180 did this as an apprentice, not a guy with the years of experience you have. He seems to think it was worthwhile, and I'm pretty sure he learned something in doing it. Originally Posted by John Welden
I don't find that at all impressive. None of the individual pieces are hard to make with the tools you listed. I could easily make those parts. I would need to practice oxy acet welding because I haven't done it since 1994.
An audience member once made an off-hand comment to a jazz guitarist (I think Herb Ellis, who was astoundingly good) that the concert was nice, but he didn't seem to use his pinky finger much in playing. Idiotic comment, really. Ellis proceeded to play a couple of the songs using ONLY his pinky finger. He played the songs like he'd practiced playign them with his pinky. The point is, the guy did an extraordinary amount of work developing near-supernatural ability, using exercises that mere mortals would have considered useless, or beneath them.
Whenever I hear someone say "This is useless, I can't learn anything from this", I'm reminded of another guitar story. Student and teacher went to see another guitarist in concert. Half-way through the concert, the student said "I'm not learning anything from this guy - I'm leaving". The teacher replied "Really? I'm learning a lot!". The predisposition to learn from anyone, and grow, is is why the Gibson guitar company still puts the teacher's name on their best electric guitars (it was Les Paul).
The point is whether a student would learn skills and technique, and gain confidence in making a vice like SAG's, or a block like the OP. It sounds like they do. -
02-23-2014, 06:08 PM #94
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These exercises perhaps have more to do with what the teacher learns about the student than what the student is learning.
Most endeavors have 'weed out' exercises to cut the wheat from the chaff as it were.
As Stephen mentioned, most of us as young men leaned just about everything we needed to know about hand fitting parts with simple tools before we got anywhere the workplace or formal training.
For those few who missed out on that- If a guy starting out can't manage this exercise- there is no sense is going much further in the trade.
I had been working with hand tools for years when I entered the workplace.
I brought my own apprentice work with me to those first interviews and they pretty much proved I could do the work.
"If you can make this- you've got the job".. -
What's the big deal? A whole you tube just to show off a broken indicator? Originally Posted by janvanruth
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Which reminds me of the old joke: A guy from Wisconsin and a guy from Texas are talking about their homes, and the Texas guy says, "I have so much land, and my house is smack dab in the middle of it, that I can hop in my pick up at dawn, drive in any direction, and at sundown, I will still be on my own land." The Wisconsin guy says, "Yeah, I used to have a pick up like that."
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Originally Posted by dgfoster
To see what kind of work watchmakers do on such a simple thing as a watch hand, here is a link to a video. This is one of ten roughly five videos that detail this work. Part 02 of 10 - Finishing a Set of Hands by Roger Smith - YouTube
Smith studied under Geo Daniels recognized as one of the premier watchmakers. Smith continues in that tradition. He notes that the term "watchmaker' is used quite broadly. Most people do not truly make watches in as much as they buy Swiss movements and fit them into a case. He is one of the few who actually makes his movements, dials, hands, cases--the whole shebang.
If you search Youtube on George Daniels and Roger Smith watchmaker, you will find a number of interesting videos. You will see that there is much handwork in custom (as opposed to production watchmaking or case fitting) watchmaking. Readers be forewarned---they are British.
Denis Originally Posted by John Welden
I could easily do what he's doing to that hand. I routinely work on much smaller parts and do much more delicate work. It's not really that big of a deal if you do it a lot.
Gee, John, I think you missed his point and my point. Nowhere did I say what he did is beyond what many of us could do. 1) My point was the hand work including file work is an intrinsic part of a true watchmaker's day-to-day routine. That point had been previously questioned. 2) And Roger, in publishing his video, was trying to show that simple handwork technique could be used to produce elegant parts and he was trying to teach those that might be interested in learning from him.
Not long ago I made a hand for an indicator I was resuscitating. I did that intuitively and unfortunately without the knowledge that Roger provides and that is detailed in many books (my bad) not the least of which is George Daniels book Watchmaking. George incidentally used all manner of tools from simple files and spade drills to jig borers and other highly specialized and elegant tools. His focus was on how best to get the job done. Sometimes that was with a small and highly precise milling machine and sometimes with a file made from a piece of brass and charged with diamond dust.
DenisJohn Welden likes this. -
02-23-2014, 09:45 PM #98
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IMO, files only get you close. Hand lapping is the general procedure I use to zero out a square corner. Originally Posted by karavshin
I am studying watchmaking via the British Horological Institute's Distance Learning Program. The practical lessons of the first year involve a lot of filing and precise measurement. I've made some hand levers, a small try square from gauge plate, and a hardened scraper. I scored well on those assignments. But now I'm working on the next assignment and I want to squeeze out some improvement on my accuracy when filing squares.
The assignment requires filing a piece of 1.5mm brass into a piece 1.2mm thick, 25mm wide, 30mm long.
I dealt with the thickness by filing it on a cork pad -- this kept it level with the file, and then I finished it page of sandpaper. I measured the accuracy using my micrometer. It was averaged to 1.20mm, with only 0.02 deviations, so I was happy enough.
The edges, 25x30mm, I feel like there is another tier of accuracy I could get to, but my current techniques don't achieve it.
Here's a range of the tools I employ:
1. Decide on master edge, file it roughly flat.
2. Hold it against my try square edge to see how flat it is.
3. Try to eliminate the high spots using either (a) needle file (b) my stainless stick with some sandpaper glued to it (c) or drag the entire face across a sheet of sandpaper. The needle file seems to round the edge, as the file flexes a bit. If I drag (c) the piece, I have to do it unidirectionally (pull it perpindicular towards me), otherwise when i push it away from my i build up a slightly different angle). The "sandpaper stick" does ok for small patches, but it's tedious to reapply fresh sandpaper after it degrades.
4. Recheck the edge flatness with the try square, repeating step 3-4-3-4 until it seems "straight".
5. Then I start doing the same process with the adjacent ends, using the try square taking data from the "master edge".
6. Finally wrap up the opposite side of the master edge using one of the other sides as the datum for the try square. [this seems most dodgy -- accumulated square errors as i work from master to side to the oppositeMaster]
The results? It's pretty darn square. It's just that the try squares never are light tight and the light crack results are very hard to repeat. I even think that micro grit messes up the reading. The try square has 1mm thick blades, and the base is a heavy ground block. I bought a preisser bevel square with narrow, unnicked edges and i have trouble getting consistent light-tightness measurements using that too though.
I feel like the last few percent perfection on this is limited by me: 1) not using the try square or bevel square well enough (are their tricks tips to using them?) 2) my last bit of micro-finishing work not quite fine enough. (but I think any micro-finishing effort is doomed if i am not exactly where the high spot is, so perhaps issue #1 is most important to deal with first?
Any advice on how to get closer-to-light-tight accuracy and squareness on tasks like this?
Thanks
I learned a lot about the effects of local pressure when making first surface telescope mirrors many years ago. Where the pressure is applied is where the majority of the cutting happens, whether it is lapping or filing. But the kick is learning to understand where the high pressure point is, and how the pressure point can transfer with any two handed stroke technique. IOW, no matter how flat you think you are holding a file, you'll create either convexity or concavity with it simply due to the nature of strokes. This principle is used to make a concave mirror without any conscious effort, just by rubbing two same size pieces of glass together over one another: the top one becomes concave on its under side inevitably. When you are rough grinding a mirror, you keep grinding with the mirror blank on top until sufficient depth of curve is reached. Then, you fine grind it in stages, swapping the 'tool' bottom to top frequently to prevent further deepening of the curve.
Similarly when filing, the long axis of the file will make convex surfaces. Putting the file on the bottom (held in a vise) and moving the part over top of it will give a straighter line because the file is generally much longer than the work, and the work never runs past the end of the file. However, local pressure created by the way fingers and arms apply pressure will begin to generate a wedge angle on the part. You must turn the part end for end to cancel this wedge making effect, even then, a small amount of crown may grow in the center of the part. A small lap about half the length of the surface can be used to work down this crown by stroking only to each end of the part, without overhang.
Remember to try to average out the errors that naturally arise due to deliberate stroking in one direction by switching directions frequently.
Once you get down to a tiny wedge angle error over the length of the surface, then you can learn to correct that by lapping and deliberately holding the part with downward pressure applied at the thick end of the wedge, while allowing the 'good end' to glide along the lap surface with only incidental contact so that you don't end up inducing another convexity to the surface.
Ever since I acquired a large B grade surface plate, I stick down a sheet of sandpaper to the plate and have a large lapping surface that is replaceable. Most of the time I simply use round self stick disks that are available at body shop supply houses, on the order of 6" round in anywhere from 120 grit ( which I use for rough lapping) and then 300 grit for finer work. Finer grits are likely available, but typically 300 grit is very slow acting anyways for good control at hand work. -
"...worship some of this shit as if it's the pinnacle of difficulty..."
Don't forget pencil sharpening. You don't just use that thing with the crank on the
side. It's gotta be done the old-school way.John Welden likes this. -
02-23-2014, 11:35 PM #100
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Where is this school? Originally Posted by JRIowa
Ya, the first part I had to make in my training was 1/2X3X3. Had to file it square, drill and hand tap 4 holes, and hand cut a triangle in the middle. The triangle opening had to be filed so that a punch would fit through without wobbling. The test on the punch was to cut a clean hole in a sheet of paper.
Looking back at it now, the ones that did a good job on the block were the same ones that made good toolmakers.
JR
I'm ready to go.
- [machinist] Hand-filing a square accurately, Lawrence London, 02/24/2014
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