Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/

[Lori Laubach <lorilral1 AT earthlink.net>]

With such a lovely attitude, it's no wonder Mr. Crisp attracts only the 
"dregs of the programming world".  It certainly doesn't help that there is no 
careers/jobs section on his web site.  How many programmers (or anyone else) 
are interested in companies that don't give some thought to presenting their 
workplace, the opportunities, and some information about their culture, 
benefits, whatever they have to offer.  The INS (which doesn't exist anymore, 
but don't get me started) is the least of his problems.
L3

-----Original Message-----
From: "David R.Matusiak" <dave AT matusiak.org>
Sent: Jan 22, 2004 3:57 PM
To: internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [internetworkers] Fwd: RTP business whines for cheap (and pretty)    
  labor

Too awesome not to share!  Gotta love how Mr. Crisp describes the 
"dregs of the programming world."  Apparently, Raleigh is waaaaaay too 
counter-culture for this one...

Begin forwarded message:

> Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004  1:14:01  PM America/New_York
> Subject: RTP business whines for cheap (and pretty) labor
>
> Bosses are feeling oppressed. It's not only that labor isn't cheap
> enough (though Crisp whines plenty about that), it's also that
>
> Steve Crisp Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:21:41 -0500
>> Any ad I have placed has resulted in the dregs of the programming
>> world beating a path to my door. The ones looking for jobs are grossly
>> underqualified, undertrained, and mostly unemployable because they
>> look and act like freaks. I really don't care how good someone may be
>> if they are covered in tattoos, have spiked hair, and could not make
>> it though a metal detector at an airport because of all their
>> highly-visible piecings.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: this epitomizes the "tech labor shortage"
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:49:10 -0800
> From: Norm Matloff <matloff AT laura.cs.ucdavis.edu>
>
> I am posting the enclosed message with the permission of its author.
>
> For those of you readers who are not in the tech world, I could write
> a long response, disagreeing with his comments on the "need" to hire
> someone with certain very specific skill sets, but will just comment
> on his point on C++ and Java. C++ and Java basically are 90% the same,
> and the differences between them are such that a competent Java
> programmer can become proficient in the special features of C++ quite
> rapidly.
>
> As I said, I could go into much more detail on this, even quoting Bill
> Gates to show he feels the same way about it as I do. Hiring a
> programmer of good programming talent is far more important than
> his/her knowing what a C++ "friend class" is (yes, that the name of a
> certain C++ feature).
>
> But as I said, I won't elaborate on that, because Mr. Crisp finally
> gets to the salient issue midway in his mail:
>
>     4. We program primarily for Macintosh equipment. With Apple
>     dramatically ramping up their facilities it is almost impossible to
>     find an Apple- experienced programmer who will work for anything
>     less than $100,000 per year plus benefits -- a salary we can in no
>     way afford to pay.
>
>     On the other hand, there are many, many foreign nationals living
>     abroad who not only are more than capable of performing the tasks
>     we need them to, but will work for reasonable salaries of $40,000
>     to $60,000 per year.
>
> That is literally the bottom line. The so-called "labor shortage" is
> not a shortage of labor; it's a "shortage" of CHEAP labor.
>
> By the way, in reading this employer's tirade about NCSU teaching Java
> instead of C++, the reason some universities (though not mine)
> switched to Java from C++ is that in 1998 the industry lobbyists
> pushing Congress for a higher H-1B visa cap kept saying that there was
> a shortage of Java programmers. It's all phony, folks.
>
> Norm
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Steve Crisp <crisp AT pageplanetsoftware.com>
> From: Steve Crisp <crisp AT pageplanetsoftware.com>
> To: <nsmatloff AT ucdavis.edu>
> Subject: Exceptinos to your Washington Post comments
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:21:41 -0500
>
> I have to take exception to the comments attributed to you in the
> Washington Post today.
>
> I own a software development company. We are finding it impossible to
> hire qualified American programmers for several reasons.
>
> 1. Many of the programmers currently out of work in this region do not
> want to work. They accepted massive severance pay from their
> respective companies and are (have been) sitting doing nothing for
> almost two years now while living off their unemployment and
> severance. Many of them took the opportunity to start their own
> businesses and have no desire to work for someone else.
>
> 2. Of the programmers who are available to accept a position, they are
> generally far less qualified. They received no severance because they
> were not good enough to code in the first place when local
> corporations started to lay people off.
>
> 3. For the past seven years, current and recent graduates of the UNC
> system have been pumped full of Java rather than C++, the language we
> program in. Java is complete trash and that is what NCSU is promoting
> in the wake of their backroom deal with Sun several years ago. I don't
> care how capable someone is, if they don't have extensive experience
> in C++, we can't use them.
>
> 4. We program primarily for Macintosh equipment. With Apple
> dramatically ramping up their facilities it is almost impossible to
> find an Apple-experienced programmer who will work for anything less
> than $100,000 per year plus benefits -- a salary we can in no way
> afford to pay.
>
> On the other hand, there are many, many foreign nationals living
> abroad who not only are more than capable of performing the tasks we
> need them to, but will work for reasonable salaries of $40,000 to
> $60,000 per year. It appears that most of the rest of the world is
> still using C++ having not switched over to worthless Java and there
> are far more Apple-oriented programmers available.
>
> Yet I can not bring these folks over to work since the INS has no
> concept of the differences between programming languages. They presume
> that since there are so many unemployed programmers available that I
> should be able to find someone in the US to perform the task. And the
> Employment Security Commission is even worse. I can't even count the
> number of times I have placed a job search with the ESC for a C++
> programmer and they have sent me someone with extensive Cobol
> experience. They think that just because someone knows how to program
> that that is enough to fulfill the job requirements. The ESC is a
> complete waste of my time.
>
> Any ad I have placed has resulted in the dregs of the programming
> world beating a path to my door. The ones looking for jobs are grossly
> underqualified, undertrained, and mostly unemployable because they
> look and act like freaks. I really don't care how good someone may be
> if they are covered in tattoos, have spiked hair, and could not make
> it though a metal detector at an airport because of all their
> highly-visible piecings. For someone to do that to themselves
> indicates a complete lack of self worth or common sense and is not
> someone I want to be associated with.
>
> I should have the opportunity to hire anyone I wish from the
> world-wide pool of potential applicants and hire them at what they are
> willing to work for. Why should I be forced into an artificial hiring
> matrix?
>
> -- 
> Steve Crisp
> PagePlanet Software, Inc.
> 3300 Octavia Street
> Raleigh, NC  27606
> http://www.pageplanetsoftware.com
> 919-233-1770
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----

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