Homestead mailing list

[Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>]

<<<<<This, to me, makes the privacy thing look like small potatoes.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081201/ts_alt_afp/usmilitarytroops

Sure, they're just for responding to natural disasters.  Sure, it will take
an act of Congress to use them in a law enforcement capacity.

Looking at the recent acts of Congress, the unthinkable seems more and more
likely.

Cathy
>>>>
 
 
This might actually tie in to the Presidential Orders regarding FEMA and 
Marshall Law.
 
It seems that FEMA can suspend the US Constitution, and institute marshall 
law under certain conditions.
 
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/fema_executive_orders.htm
 
"The typical crisis needed would be threat of imminent nuclear war, RIOTING 
in several U.S. cites simultaneously, a series of national disasters that 
affect widespread danger to the populous, massive terrorist attacks, a 
DEPRESSION IN WHICH TENS OF MILLIONS ARE UNEMPLOYED and without financial 
resources, or a major environmental disaster."
 
 
ALSO 
http://members.tripod.com/~Sidlinger/ml.html
 
 
 
 
ps any yahoo person............ how can I reply directly to someone else's 
posts without bringing up outlook, since my outlook isn't hooked up to my 
yahoo mail?
 
 
 
 
 



>From bobford79 AT yahoo.com  Sat Dec  6 15:35:05 2008
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From: bob ford <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
To: cayadopi AT yahoo.com, homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
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Subject: Re: [Homestead] National Debt Much > $100 Trillion & the Bond
        Market Bubble
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You are asking (maybe rhetorical)questions with answers of which men with 
multiple PhDs and lifetimes of study have disagreeing answers.  I don't know 
the answers. 

 Would the equivalent of a barrel of milk really cost more than a barrel of 
oil?  Remember the gov't subsidies?  

Atlas Shrugged is a wonderful read (overlooking the prose), and Rand was 
brilliant, but she did not have all of the answers.  Greed is not good, it is 
a vice.  Selfishness is only good in a philisophical sense, and the 
selfishness argument is actually circular.

You and I are talking economic theory, which is good.  It is important to 
understand what will influence and affect our lives.  There are people, 
though, on this list who have partially removed themselveas from worrying 
about society , at large.  One or two, barely interact with the larger 
society.  

I have no idea how far you intend to go on your journey of self - reliance, 
but there are members of this list from whom you will learn much more about 
'self-reliance' on a homestead, than I can tell you.  I do what I can in the 
city, but, I 'do' still live in the city.  I enjoy these types of 
conversations, very much;  But, always remember that people like Rob in VA; 
James; Susan, and many more are alrweady successfully 'doing' the 
homestead/self -reliant life......................................


----------------------------------------------------------------------




--- On Sat, 12/6/08, Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] National Debt Much > $100 Trillion & the Bond 
> Market Bubble
> To: bobford79 AT yahoo.com
> Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 1:20 PM
> Understood that one about timber instantly.  Although as
> long as there are still "tree seeds", we can
> "reforest" after a fire.  Actually in nature,
> don't forest become healthier after a fire (parallel to
> purging the bad from the system...)
>  
> One thing I do not get is why is milk more expensive than
> oil?  Breed more cows for more milk..... but where does
> more oil, or gold or other finite quantity of things come
> from?
>  
>  
> Anyway,
>  
> Over the past few months, as the fed has printed the money,
> I have thought about this concept in terms of just
> replacing what is being destroyed and no inflation..
> although I have not heard this concept.  Do you happen to
> know who's line of thinking this thought process comes
> from?  (Keynes or similar types?)
>  
>  
> <<<There is an opposing view that says that as
> long as the wealth
> 'destruction is 'equal' to the newly printed
> fiat money, then
> inflation will not occur; and that if the wealth
> destruction 'exceed'
> the money printed, then we will in fact have a
> 'deflationary'
> depression.>>>
>  
>  
>  
> As I let this idea swirl around......... this is what pops
> into my head first.
>  
> OK, we have two different types of wealth.
>  
> Real wealth - let's just simplify it as commodities
> and real estate, and the ability to transform those
> commodities and real estate into the goods and food that
> make it easier to survive as a species... 
>  
> and 
>  
> Fiat wealth -  paper money, paper stocks, paper futures
> contracts, paper bonds.
>  
> Those that have real wealth (let's say some land and
> seeds and shovels, and the knowledge how to use that wealth
> to survive....) won't necessarily be affected too much,
> by say the collapse of a Bear Stearns built on fiat
> wealth.  Unless of course they eat their seeds instead of
> planting them, or if looters who lost their fiat wealth
> (money) come out and steal the seeds and eat them.   
>  
> And of course if some eat their seeds and some save them,,,
> those that have extra seed could/would demand a higher
> price.
>  
>  
> Whereas I'm thinking along the lines that it is the
> fiat wealth that is the zero sum - that it just transfers
> from one hand to another.     
>  
> Although, of course, if there are no goods left to
> purchase, the fiat wealth is worth zippo... 
>  
>  
> I suppose the question here at this point in time would
> have to be,,,, is real wealth being destroyed faster than
> fiat money creation.  
>  
> In some areas at the moment this may be true.  If, thru
> price manipulation, prices are driven so low that commodity
> producer companies shut down and close, then the wealth of
> their product is withdrawn from circulation.  The question
> is, is there another producer out there in the world still
> willing to produce at the lower prices, which may turn
> higher due to higher demand for products made from fewer
> producers.
>  
> Of course in Atlas Shrugged the answer to that is the
> producers give up, and no amount of fiat money or bankrupt
> idea brings them back, back to the dark ages....  And that
> type of outcome is truly a possibility I do not discount at
> all....especially the fox (Greenspan) having been in the hen
> house for so long.
>  
> But anyway,,,, can the current central bankers of the world
> get just the right balance?  Can they create just enough
> currency to match wealth destruction - and hence no
> depression and no inflation?  Or will they print too much
> and create something ranging from inflation to hyper
> inflation?  Or not print enough and unleash a depression?
>  
> Given Bernanke's background (no depression under his
> tenure mentality) and his follow-thru actions to date, the
> later doesn't seem likely while he's in charge.  
>  
>  
> VERY INTERESTING.
>  
> If they underprint money then depression, then the
> gov't defaults on SS and everything else it has
> promised.  What are the odds - politically?  What I hear
> in the news is the opposite  being planned.
>  
> If they print exaclty the right amount to bail out Scam
> Street - what about the looming $100+ Trillion in unfunded
> liabilities?  
>  
> Print the money to keep up with that,,, and we exceed our
> ability to produce and tax at some point, leading to more
> money printing, eventually leading to monetary collapse
> & depression.  
>  
> Depressing!  Depression sooner or later....
>  
>  
> Yes, Austrian .... Every time I try to open up Keynes'
> monetary theory book, I get really upset for some reason and
> have to put it down.  I've been trying to read that
> thing for 10 years now, and I know I need to read it thru to
> the end and soon.  What did Keynes say in response to being
> asked about his methods being highly inflationary resulting
> in monetary collapse,,,, "in the end we're all
> dead".  
>  
> Stockpile... :-)   Solves both directions of depression
> or hyperinflation????
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> --- On Sat, 12/6/08, bob ford <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> From: bob ford <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] National Debt Much > $100
> Trillion & the Bond Market Bubble
> To: cayadopi AT yahoo.com, homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 1:49 PM
> 
> I will reply to you 'generally' about wealth
> destruction, and leave mr
> buffett out of the picture.  If you own a stand of timber;
> that timber has
> value, which gives you  'wealth' . If the timber
> burns, that
> 'wealth' is destoryed.  It transferred to no-one.
> 
> In a more complicated macro-economic picture, one could say
> that the burning of
> your stand of timber increased the value of all of the
> similar timber left
> standing ? ..............
> 
> 
> You wrote ">   1) we can not avoid the inflationary
> effects of the
> money
> > printing - it will happen ".  Austrian economics
> would agree with
> you.  Inflation would occur simply with the printing of the
> money.  
> 
> There is an opposing view that says that ias long as the
> wealth
> 'destruction is 'equal' to the newly printed
> fiat money, then
> inflation will not occur; and that if the wealth
> destruction 'exceed'
> the money printed, then we will in fact have a
> 'deflationary'
> depression.  I tend to agree with the Austrian school, as
> do you; but , I have
> my concerns, still.
> 
> ..............bob ford