Homestead mailing list

[Rob <becida AT comcast.net>]

Date:   Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:54:53 -0400
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From: tvoivozhd <tvoivozd AT roanoke.infi.net>
To: homestead AT listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Gambrel roof building
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>
> > tvoivozhd---that's one Kern book I don't have.
>
> It's called "The Owner Built Timber Frame House" and he makes some
> pretty scary suggestions in it, including suggesting the use of 1x
> surfaced (lumberyard) lumber for stud framing - still on the
> conventional spacings.

>>>tvoivozhd---well, when he wrote the book, clear pine or fir boards were
obtainable at a reasonable price, and because they lacked knots or other
strength-robbing defects, yes a nominal one-inch board could be used on
sixteen inch centers instead of 2 x 4, and hold the load, PROVIDED stiffeners
were used to create an "L" or "T" cross-section.

Now the clear lumber is too scarce and too expensive and I don't think any
saving could be obtained (and a lot of labor expended) using S4S boards for
studs.

As stiffened girts, roughsawn 5/4 would work all right---wouldn't have the
compression loads that are imposed on studs.


>
>
> > He would be talking about rough-sawn five-quarter boards from
> > a sawmill, not S4S (surfaced four sides) from a lumberyard.
>
> Yeah, but I was thinking of using surfaced lumber, which is actually
> sometimes cheaper than the rough sawn.

>>>tvoivozhd---I was referring to buying rough sawn at a sawmill, not
lumberyard.
At all the sawmills where I bought lumber, the price of roughsawn was always
less than half S4S at a lumberyard---and of course much stronger.

> I'd have to double check the
> prices since the lumber store prices are so volatile (rough sawn is not,
> I think its 35 cents a board foot at every sawmill I've checked).  Plus,
> that was for 2x lumber, and 1x lumber, while less than the 2x, is NOT
> half the price - for the surfaced stuff.  It is EXACTLY half the price
> for the rough-sawn, since its sold by the board foot and we're talking
> half the thickness.
>
> > Yes, placing a five-quarter capboard on a five-quarter girt gives
> > it great rigidity and more than enough strength if glued as well
> > as nailed.
>
> If I ended up using lumberyard lumber, would it still be good enough?
> Or would it now be too weak, since its smaller dimension (on the other
> hand its not likely to shrink or warp as much).

>>>tvoivozhd---if it was construction grade and straight enough to make a
good joint in your "L" section it would be strong enough, but quite likely
too expensive an alternative if sawmill roughsawn is half the price..

>
>
> > > He also left his posts exposed to do this.  If I enclose
> > > my posts, as I was planning, I'm not sure if this could
> > > be adapted - maybe notching the horizontal member around
> > > the post would do it.
> >
> > >>>tvoivozhd---Your poles are probably treated and from a
> > lumberyard, so you aren't going to vary their dimension, but
> > occasionally a back-country sawmill will custom-cut capboards
> > to make them fit whatever construction you have in mind, i.e.,
> > make the capboard fill a dual-purpose, provide rigidity
> > and a nailing/screwing surface on the open side---if that side
> > is flush to or extending beyond the post.
>
> Ummm, sorry to be so dense, but . . . What's a capboard?

>>>tvoivozhd---my own terminology, I tend to be literal.  The board laid on
top of a girt as Kern advocated, aka capstrip.  I built some hexagon Bahamian
beach cottages that way (poles inside, girts and thatch outside).  A
twelve-inch capboard at its midpoint laid on top the girt.  A screened window
was hinged above it and swung out of the way up to the rafters or down where
sliding bolts slid into holes on the capboard to lock the window into
vertical position.  When up the capboard made an adequate server for meals
and drinks for people coming in from the reefs.

>
>
> What I was meaning to ask is that since instead of nailing these
> L-shaped girt thingies to the inside of the post so the posts are
> outside the building (and I still don't understand how he managed to
> slide the siding in there) I want my posts to end up sandwiched between
> the siding and the wallboard the "normal" way.  So what I was wondering
> was if I nail the VERTICAL member across the FRONT (external edge) of
> the poles, now the horizontal member will need to have a notch cut out
> at the post - so the horizontal part of that L slides in between posts.

>>>tvoivozhd---sure, that's what I had in mind but probably didn't explain
well.  Nail up the vertical member across the front (it's a girt, though a
thin one).  Then fasten the horizontal member.  All that is, is a
stiffener---at least on the girt side, since you will nail or screw the
siding to the girt.  IF the horizontal member (capboard) extends to and
beyond the other face of the pole, you can screw sheetrock to it, and your
poles are fully enclosed.  Don't bother to cut any notches in the capboard.
If the capboard does not extend beyond the interior face of the pole you need
interior girts to which sheetrock can be fastened---I would then use interior
and exterior girts  with blocking between.

>
>
> Now its not a continuous L shaped beam anymore, and I don't know if that
> ruins the strength of it.

>>>tvoivozhd---the girt fastens to the pole.  All the capboard does is act as
a stiffener.  It doesn't have to be contoured to the pole.  A square cut
works as well.
You toenail the capboard to the pole at each end---only to stabilize it a
little for fastening siding and sheetrock.  After they are fastened the
sheetrock vertically stabilizes the position of the "L" section capboard.

>
>
> > Another alternative if you want to enclose the posts, and use
> > 5/4 boards, is to fasten them to both sides of the posts as girts,
> > giving you the option of fastening a capstrip to both, or inserting
> > blocking at intervals for rigidity.  Cut the board-blocks all to
> > the same size (width of your square posts) with a temporary jig
> > or stop on your tablesaw/radial saw/cutoff saw.  You would be
> > using screws in the endgrain of the blocks, and installing the
> > blocks in a vertical position.
>
> OK, sorry to be such a dummy, but I think I have this figured out
> maybe.  I still don't know about the capstrip, but is the "blocking
> board" you're talking about just a little 5 1/4" chunk of wood (since a
> 6x6 square PT post is really about 5 1/4" or so) that you glue in
> between parallel girts to keep them from bowing/warping?  And are you
> placing them at whatever the normal nailing interval would be for
> drywall, so now your drywall hanger nails go through a 1" girt and into
> the blocking that's in turn screwed-and-glued to the parallel girt on
> the outside?

>>>tvoivozhd---you got it!  You don't even have to worry about where the
blocks go.  Their function is exclusively to stiffen the two thin girts.  The
beauty of using girts is that it is easy and economical to lay your sheetrock
horizontally and fasten with sheetrock screws (not nails).  If you have an
eight foot wall, you fasten to the top, middle and bottom girt.  For a higher
wall, you have to add another fastening girt.
There would be no advantage to seek out the spacer-block positions for
fasteners.
The 5/4 roughsawn girt (or S4S for that matter) are more than sufficient
thickness for holding sheetrock screws.

>
>
> And if so, do they need to be screwed and glued or would just glued do,
> since they're going to get screwed (sheesh!  you know what I mean) when
> you put up the siding on the outside, and nailed when you put up the
> drywall on the inside (I don't think I can use screws with drywall, can

>>>tvoivozhd---as a firm believer in Murphy's law, I like overkill on joints
of any kind.  So I would use screws and glue on both endgrain faces of the
blocking, and screws and glue in fastening girts to the posts.  Sheetrock
screws are used on sheetrock.  For other wood applications I prefer plated,
corrosion-resistant screws, stainless steel screws with neoprene washers on
metal roofing or siding.  You can also fasten the girts to posts with
ringnails or screwnails, but when driven into endgrain, have more tendency to
split than screws.

>
> I?).

>>>tvoivozhd---I have found it easier to use sheetrock screws than
nails---easier to tape and less damage than that caused by careless hammers.
And if you have to move the sheet you can.

> Otherwise if you screw 'em in there when you come back around with
> your siding/drywall now you have to look out for screw heads that are
> already there for the blocking when you place your fasteners.

>>>tvoivozhd---if you place the screws in the blocking an inch or so from
upper and lower edge, and sheetrock seam at the middle of the girt, with
sheetrock screws an inch from the edge of the sheetrock, there will be no
interference.

>
>
> > Using boards both sides as girts makes fastening the later-installed
> > sheetrock a lot easier than to a 5/4 board face..
>
> Yeah, that's the normal way they do with 2x4's, isn't it?  In parallel
> inside and out?  Which actually gives you rather a thick wall cavity -
> 5/8" for the T1-11 siding, then 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 for the 2x exterior
> girts, then 5.5" for the 6" square poles, then another 1.5" for the
> interior 2x girts, then whatever the drywall thickness is.  That's 8.5"
> cavity space between the exterior siding and the interior drywall
> (except where the girts are taking up that extra 3" or so).

>>>tvoivozhd---yeah.

>
>
> Packed sawdust insulation is sounding better and better all the time.
> That way at least I can manipulate the size of the tubes to make sure
> they fit within the varying spaces.

>>>it'll work, though the tubes don't provide the thermal protection of
poured sawdust---of course may not settle as much either.  Another
possibility if you have access to a small shredder is to recycle styrofoam.
It is used everywhere as packing for electronic equipment, dumpsters are full
of it.  It is inert,  immune to water or insect damage, doesn't settle and
has better R-value than sawdust.

>
>
> > Bear in mind, that if you are using green roughsawn, the capboard will
> > shrink across the grain---might result in wavy sheetrock.
>
> Yuh, I'd rather not use the roughsawn because of this.  He was using it,
> but I was hoping I could get away with substituting the kiln-dried faced
> stuff from the lumberyard.  ???

>>>tvoivozhd---sawmills always use "stickered" stacks for their roughsawn
boards.
It airdries fast enough so that if it has been stacked a month or two it
isn't fully dry, but the bulk of the moisture is gone and shrinkage from that
point on is little to worry about.  If you use inner and outer girts, with
end-grain blocking between them, shrinkage is not a problem anyway---95% or
more of shrinkage is cross-grain.

>
>
> > Air-dried rough sawn won't shrink,
>
> Unfortunately nobody around here does that anymore, and I don't have the
> time or the space to wait for it to air dry.

>>>tvoivozhd---it is true no one dries roughsawn for a year, but a sawmill
has to stack it with stickers between to keep it straight and unblemished.
I've seen the stuff lay around in sawmills here for as long as six months
before someone buys it.  My neighbors all built their pole barns with
roughsawn tulip magnolia---green as grass too.  Pole barn construction is
very forgiving---doesn't require the precision of stickbuilt houses.

>
>
> Thanks for the help and advice, I really am pretty nervous about all
> this but I'm trying to get over it and get it done.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Holly ;-D

>>>tvoivozhd---the nervousness vanishes quickly once the project is started.
If you build a tabletop model, a larger-scale building is travelling familiar
ground.