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[Rob <becida AT comcast.net>]

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Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:06:58 -0400
From: tvoivozhd <tvoivozd AT roanoke.infi.net>
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Subject: Re: Recycling tools
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S & S Aqua Farm wrote:

> We've a good collection of older farm tools, bought at auctions, mostly.
> I'm interested in knowing -- what have you found is the best method for
> restoring metal tools that have been left to weather too long?
>
> There are some that appear to be "custom" tools for tractor work, and we may
> just save them for curiousity's sake, but we have some long-handled weed
> tools that should work well for clearing brush and weeds in ditches, down
> slopes, etc.  I'd like to get them fully functional, even if I end up using
> them myself :>)
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Paula
> S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124
> Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

Tvoivozhd---oh damn, Paula.  You would ask for data I archived on hard drive
long ago, but did not index it.
Well, to start.  It's dangerous to handle, you want gloves, goggles a rubber
apron, rubber boots, but phosphoric acid is one of the standards for derusting
metal.  I bought some to take an enormous amount of rust out of a gas 
tank a few
months ago.  If I could have bought a tank that would fit I would have done 
so.

Can't remember the concentration, but I think it was 30%.  I didn't cut it
whatever it was.  You will probably have to hunt around for an industrial
chemical supplier who will sell to you.  Normally they won't sell to consumers
at all since they are fearful they will do something profoundly 
stupid and blame
them.  I found one that would sell me a gallon.  It is usually sold in full
plastic drums.

Next---you can derust most things with DC current, using the item to 
be derusted
as the cathode (negative post) submerging it and the anode (positive 
post) in an
electrolyte (current-carrying liquid) that does not break down into poisonous
gas.

Let's make a 180 degree turn.  I found some stuff in file.


Rust Removal

by Brian Verbeek



I'm looking into easy to use do-it-yourself chemical treatments and 
this is what
I learned about
chemically derusting and preparing metal for further treatment:

Phosphoric acid: It costs about $2.50us per Kilo (20 liters is about 
31.5 Kilo).
It can be thinned with
water (I don't know the best ratio). It works best unthinned, but then you 
must
keep watching the
process as it eats metal. This is called "phosphating". VW does (or did?) it
with most steel parts
before they were painted--it gives an iron-phosphate coat on the part and,
unlike galvanizing, it
reaches all holes and crevices. It's a good thing to do to any steel part that
will not receive any other
treatment before paint or primer. Phosphating will disturb the galvanizing
process--it gives marginal
corrosion protection compared to galvanizing. Visible phosphating can be found
on computer
chassis, the flat gray metal color finish. A slightly better corrosion
protection can be had by using a
special phosphoric acid that contains zinc. The process is then called
"zinc-phosphating".

If you want to remove the rust, or only clean the parts prior to galvanizing 
or
any other
electroplating, use sulphuric acid (I hope that's the correct translation, we
call it salt acid) which does
not leave a residue. Both phosphoric acid and sulphuric acid will remove a lot
more than a regular
solvent you'd use to degrease a part prior to painting. The risk of 
rust will be
reduced by a lot.

Both treatments are very simple to do. Just take a suitable container or 
bucket
fill it enough so you
can emerge the part in the stuff and see how it goes. Both chemicals will not
strip paint so you'd
need to do that first. Don't put an alloy part in there of course :) and,
needless to say, these are very
corrosive chemicals, very nasty stuff. If you have a safe place to 
keep them you
can use them over
and over, but I wouldn't know when it's used up. In my humble opinion,
phosphating is a lot better
than sand blasting. Sand blasting increases the surface area (and thus the 
risk
of rust) by a high (I
forgot how high) percentage and it cannot crawl into a folded seam or weld.

I think it'll become problematic to use this process with the fanshroud. I'll
look for a company that
can dip it into something. I got a tip from my galvanizer. I asked 
what he would
prefer me to use on
the bare metal to prevent rust and if he had problems if I used motor 
oil. "No,"
he said, "if you're
stripping the paint you must rinse with a lot of water. After that you fill 
the
sink with water and a
little dishwashing soap (a little more than you use for dishwashing). Wash the
part again and let it
dry. The soap residue is enough to protect against quick rust, and it removes
real easy." The
galvanizer can emerge it in sulphuric acid as he always does and the soap is
gone.


Tvoivozhd---a strong alkali will also remove rust. (don't use on aluminum)


                                          Restoration
                                   KL&L Lantern Collecting Website


           Just about any collector who's been in the hobby awhile 
has developed
an
           approach to cleaning and restoring lanterns.  Frequently collectors
come across
           these things in a state of considerable corrosion (the 
lanterns, not
the collectors)
           and face the task of judging whether or not good metal exists under
coats of
           paint and/or rust.  Railroad lanterns, after all, were 
used outdoors
under industrial
           conditions that were often brutal, so bumps, dents, and 
rust are the
rule rather
           than the exception.  Moreover, while it seems that most 
lanterns left
the factory in
           an unpainted condition (usually covered with a solder-like coating
referred to as
           "tin"), some were later painted by their owners, probably as a
rust-prevention
           measure.  Most collectors will attest that there are 
fewer satisfying

           accomplishments in the hobby than to restore a battered, corroded
hulk of metal
           to its shiny close-to-former condition. A lot of 
collectors will also
relate stories of
           how a candidate that at first seemed real promising 
turned out to be
full of holes
           or almost completely rusted through after going through a
rust-removal treatment.


           There's a lot of controversy about how (and if) to 
restore lanterns,
so the
           following is offered only as a collection of opinions and
experience.  The best
           advice here is to try some of these techniques out and judge for
yourself.

           If to Restore. In some fields or hobbies that involve collecting
historical artifacts,
           any restoration that destroys the original "as found" condition,
patina, etc., of the
           artifact is considered a definite sin. This seems to be 
less the case
with RR
           lanterns, perhaps because the "as found" condition of 
many of them is
rather
           grim. A commonly held opinion is that if the lantern is in rather
decent shape, it
           should be cleaned but otherwise left as is. However, if there is
considerable rust
           or old paint, some sort of restoration is desirable. Most 
collectors
will remove
           any paint found on lanterns, but again there is no 
complete consensus
on this
           and some definite exceptions. For example, some Dietz model "999"
lanterns
           were painted at the factory with a "japan" medium blue finish. This
original
           factory finish is usually left intact.

           Removing old paint & grime. Doug McIntyre recently wrote some very
           informative directions for cleaning and removing paint 
from lanterns,
based on
           much experience and experimentation.  He has kindly 
agreed to let us
post
           these directions here.  Doug writes....

           "Remember that cleaning can only do so much. Examine lanterns
carefully
           before buying. If a lantern is in lousy condition to begin with,
cleaning will, at best,
           make it a clean lantern in lousy condition. Pitting will 
normally get
more
           pronounced, and thin areas may end up disintegrating. Please use
proper
           safety precautions (clothing, glasses and ventilation) as 
this method
uses
           some very harsh chemistry.

           Begin by totally disassembling the lantern -- globe retainer out,
retainer spring
           out, font out, burner removed from font, clip-off/twist-off bells
detached. Place the
           pieces of the lantern in a 5 gallon plastic bucket, fill the bucket
with water as hot
           as it comes from the faucet, then slowly and carefully add a can of
Red Devil lye.
           Use straight lye, not drain cleaner with lye . . . 100% lye. Stand
back, as this
           often brings the water to a near-boil. Some people use 
the same "pot
of soup"
           for numerous lanterns, but it is my firm belief that the 
great amount
of heat
           generated during this initial dissolving is what does a 
great deal of
the cleaning.
           Lanterns that are painted, greasy, grimy, you name it, will all bow
to this solution.
           Leave the lamp for a day or two. Then, remove the pieces, 
rinse them
thoroughly
           with hot water (watch the spray) and then scrub it 
thoroughly with a
Brillo pad
           (NOT SOS! . . . it just doesn't do nearly as good a job).  Also,
before scrubbing,
           get the Brillo pad worked into a lather using hot water 
(have no idea
why this
           works better, but it does). [Editor's Note: We have been 
informed by
one
           collector that lye should not be used with alumininum 
parts, which he
says will
           turn them into "yogurt". To our knowledge, aluminum was not used in
           manufacturing RR lanterns, but it was used in other 
railroad items as
stepboxes.
           So if your restoration plans include aluminum items, heed this
advice. Now back
           to Doug.]

           Once you have carefully scrubbed the lantern, rinse it off
thoroughly. You will
           easily be able to see if it needs another day in "the 
soup" or if it
is ready to
           continue with the process. If it needs more "soup" time, drop it in
the bucket for
           another day. Once the lantern looks clean, I place it in a 5 gallon
bucket that is
           filled with vinegar. This strong solution neutralizes the 
lye. Let it
soak a day. Do
           not use any water after this point. Next, I put the lantern in the
oven at the lowest
           setting, with the door slightly ajar, for 3-4 hours (get 
ready for a
stink!). I then
           place the lantern in a 5 gallon bucket of WD-40, which serves to
displace any
           remaining water/vinegar.

           After a day in the WD-40, I leave the lamp dripping with WD-40, and
then begin
           the serious cleaning by using a small piece of 0000 steel 
wool that I
spray with
           WD-40. Take your time, and work a small section at a time. Over the
years, I
           have fashioned a number of specialized "pushers" and such 
that I use
to work
           the steel wool into every nook and cranny. As I work, I use a towel
to wipe the
           lamp down repeatedly, change steel wool often, and 
continue to spray
dirty spots
           with WD-40. If, after this, it needs a bit more TLC, put it back in
the WD-40
           bucket for another day or two and repeat the steel wool process.

           If you are pleased with the look of the lantern after 
this, use paper
towels to really
           wipe it down, then go over it all with dry 0000 steel wool to bring
up as much of a
           shine as you want. Lots of patience and elbow grease are 
the keys at
this point.
           If the lantern, or certain areas of it, are still not as 
clean as you
want, use 0000
           steel wool dipped in D&L handcleaner (it is waterless!) 
Rub and wipe
repeatedly
           until you achieve the results you want. If the lantern is 
especially
pitted and dirty, I
           use D&L with pumice in it (a little grit) and work carefully with
steel wool and/or a
           brass handbrush. Wipe thoroughly after cleaning. Assemble 
the lantern
and
           enjoy. I do not put a wick in after cleaning, as it often acts as a
little dehumidifier,
           and the moisture drips off the end of the wick. You can 
find yourself
with many
           pots with pinholes in the bottom because of it. I also remove the
"wadding" in
           short globe pots for the same reason. Lanterns should then be kept
away from
           humidity and extremes of heat if possible.

           With respect to spraying/coating after cleaning. I only do this if
there is a degree
           of pitting I find objectionable. This often includes the 
dome cap on
Dietz Vesta's
           and the lids on some Adams & Westlake Reliable's and 
250's. I tend to
lightly
           shine these areas with a brass hand brush, and then use Rust-o-leum
clear gloss
           coating. Apply it lightly and build up the finish you 
want a layer at
a time. Try to
           spray only on days with medium temperature and low 
humidity for best
results.
           Make sure such lanterns are totally dry before spraying, as any
moisture will be
           captured and will eventually work its way out somehow.

           I have tried the following methods and found them disappointing:
Sani-Flush-can
           attack rust too vigorously and cause holes, can also leave the lamp
with a very
           odd whitish appearance, like it just came out of a deep-freeze.


           Boiling them in Trisodiumphosphate (TSP) very smelly, 
messy, and does
not
           clean all that well.

           Do not ever use wire brushing, heavy grades of steel wool, scraping
of any kind,
           or, unless all hope is gone, any of the "blasting" 
techniques. I have
seen the latter
           take hundreds of dollars off the value of lanterns. If you do elect
to use such
           methods, do not be angry when others are not interested in them
should you
           decide to sell or trade them."  [End of Doug's directions]

           Some additional suggestions for removing rust. A lot of chemical
solutions
           for removing rust have been suggested. Most involve some 
sort of acid
that
           dissolves the rust and leaves a residue that cleans up 
with soap and
water. The
           commercial rust-removal solutions like naval jelly are 
usually based
on
           phosphoric acid. A commercial product called "Rusticide", available
at some
           paint stores, is a solution of phosphoric acid that is 
VERY effective
at removing
           rust quickly. It is so powerful though that someone 
wishing to remove
only some
           of the rust would have to watch things very closely and limit the
time in the
           solution. Rusticide is expensive but can be kept 
indefinitely in a 5
gallon painters
           bucket with a lid to prevent evaporation. Soaking even a very rusty
lantern frame
           or lantern part in this solution overnight is almost 
always adequate
to remove
           heavy rust coatings. However, be aware that any aggressive rust
removal
           treatment will expose whatever holes that have been caused by
corrosion; only
           the real metal is left and sometimes that ain't much. A 
badly rusted
lantern frame
           may actually dissolve in a strong solution leaving only a few parts
and memories.

           Other suggested solutions for removing rust include soaking in
vinegar (which
           reportedly takes days, even weeks, for bad cases) and soaking in a
solution of
           "Sani-Flush" using one can dissolved slowly in a 5-gallon bucket of
water.
           Dumping the Sani-Flush in all at once will cause the 
solution to foam
out all over
           the floor. From experience, it appears that any prolonged 
soaking in
a highly
           acidic solution will tend to "pickle" whatever tin 
coating is left on
the lantern. This
           leaves a "frozen" look, as Doug mentioned above, and requires
vigorous buffing
           using fine (#0000) steel wool to remove. To minimize 
this, soaking in
any acid
           solution should be watched carefully and done only as long as is
necessary to
           remove the rust.

           Some additional advicet:  One collector suggests a soft wire brush
attached to
           a bench grinder which he finds to be faster than the use of #0000
steel wool.
           Another has had good success on non-tinned surfaces with a Dremel
motor
           tool and wire brush attachment after the brush has been 
"broken in" a
little. The
           high speed of the motor tool tends to promote burnishing 
and minimize
marking.
           However, using such a tool on surfaces where there is any tin left
will leave
           abrasion or scratch marks. Any motor tool or grinder should be used
only with
           safety glasses and protective clothing since the revolutions of the
attachment
           can actually "spit" tiny pieces of wire.

           Another collector reports successful use of crushed 
walnut shells in
a
           sandblaster.  He cautions to make sure that all the sand is removed
from the
           cabinet first.  The fine nature of the walnut shells removes paint
and light rust
           without damage to soft metal parts. including brass. One source for
the walnut
           shell material is: Truman's Inc., Skat Blast Inc.,7075 
Route 446, PO
Box 649,
           Canfield, OH 44406, phone: 1-800-321-9260; local calls: 
330-533-3384

           Pounding out dents.  Dents are common in lanterns, particularly on
the smoke
           dome. These can be "pounded out" with a 1 inch wooden 
dowel which has
been
           rounded on the end. Use a light mallet or hammer to pound 
from within
and don't
           get carried away. Cracks can develop in the metal if too much force
is used.

                    Lantern Collecting Home Page | Globes | Restoration |
                    Reproductions | RR Lantern Types | RR Lantern Uses
The Electrolytic Rust Removal FAQ

Ted Kinsey

I have had a couple of requests for this recently and there are a lot of new
subscribers, so here 'tis again. I hope I have
covered all the points so we don't start the thread again.

What is the method?
     A technique for returning surface rust to iron. It uses the effect of an
small low voltage electric current and a
     suitable electrolyte (solution).

What advantages does the method have over the old standbys, like vinegar, 
Coke,
muriatic acid, Naval Jelly, wire
brushing, sand blasting etc. ?
     These methods all remove material to remove the rust, including un-rusted
surfaces. With many, the metal is left
     with a "pickled"look or a characteristic color and texture. The
electrolytic method removes nothing: by returning
     surface rust to metallic iron, rust scale is loosened and can be easily
removed. Un-rusted metal is not affected in
     any way.

What about screws, pivots, etc that are "rusted tight"?
     The method will frequently solve these problems, without the need for
force, which can break things.

Is it safe?
     The solutions used are not hazardous; the voltages and currents 
are low, so
there is no electrical hazard. No
     noxious fumes are produced. The method is self limiting: it is impossible
to overclean an object.

Where did this method come from?
     Electrolysis is a standard technique in the artifact 
restoration business.
I wrote this up for the Chronicle of the
     Early American Industries Association a few years back. Most of the tool
collectors around here use it:

What do I need?
     A plastic tub; a stainless steel or iron electrode, water and 
washing soda
(NOT baking soda!!) and a battery
     charger. About a tablespoon of soda to a gallon of water. If you have
trouble locating the washing soda,
     household lye will work just fine. It's a tad more nasty--always wear eye
protection and be sure to add the lye to
     the water (NOT water to lye!!!) The solution is weak, and is not harmful,
though you might want to wear gloves.

How long does the solution last?
     Forever, though the loosened rust will make it pretty disgusting after a
while. Evaporation and electrolysis will
     deplete the water from the solution. Add water ONLY to bring the level
back.

What about the iron electode?
     The iron electrode works best if it surrounds the object to be cleaned,
since the cleaning is "line of sight" to a
     certain extent. The iron electode will be eaten away with time. Stainless
steel has the advantage (some alloys, but
     not all) that it is not eaten away.

How do I connect the battery charger?
     THE POLARITY IS CRUCIAL!! The iron or stainless electrode is connected to
the positive (red) terminal. The
     object being cleaned, to the negative(black). Submerge the object, making
sure you have good contact, which
     can be difficult with heavily rusted objects.

How do I know if it is working?
     Turn on the power. If your charger has a meter, be sure come current is
flowing. Again, good electrical contact
     may be hard to make-it is essential. Fine bubbles will rise from the
object.

How long do I leave it?
     The time depends on the size of the object and of the iron electrode, and
on the amount of rust. You will have to
     test the object by trying to wipe off the rust. Ir it is not completely
clean, try again. Typical cleaning time for
     moderately rusted objects is a few hours. With heavily rusted objects can
be left over night.

How do I get the rust off after I remove the object?
     Rub the object under running water. A paper towel will help. For heavily
rusted objects, a plastic pot scrubber
     can be used, carefully. Depending on the amount of original rust, you may
have to re-treat.

My object is too big to fit. Can I clean part of it?
     Yes. You can clean one end and then the other. Lap marks should 
be minimal
if the cleaning was thorough.

After I take it out, then what?
     The clean object will acquire surface rust very quickly, so 
wipe it dry and
dry further in a warm oven or with a
     hair dryer. You may want to apply a light oil or a coat of wax to prevent
further rusting.

Will the method remove pitting?
     No. It only operates on the rust in immediate contact with 
unrusted metal.
What's gone is gone.

What will it look like when I am done?
     The surface of rusted metal is left black. Rusted pits are still pits.
Shiny unrusted metal is untouched.

What about nickle plating, paint, japanning and the like?
     Sound plating will not be affected. Plating under which rust 
has penetrated
will usually be lifted. The solution may
     soften some paints. Test with a drop of solution in an 
inconspicuous place.
Remove wood handles if possible
     before treating.

How can I handle objects that are awkward to clean?
     There are lots of variants: suspending an electrode inside to clean a
cavity in an object; using a sponge soaked in
     the electrolyte with a backing electrode to clean spots on 
large objects or
things that shouldn't be submerged (like
     with lots of wood)

How can I dispose of the solution?
     The bath will last until it gets so disgusting that you decide it is time
for a fresh one. There is nothing especially
     nasty about it-it's mildly basic-so disposal is not a concern, except you
may not want all the crud in your drains.

Can I use metal containers?
     This is highly risky. Galvanized metal can introduce zinc into the
solution. If you have used lye, it will attack
     aluminum. You may have problems with electrical shorts, etc. Stick to
plastic.

How can I clean odd shaped objects?
     Be ingenious. Plastic PVC pipe and eave troughs, wooden boxes with poly
vapor barrier.

Ted Kinsey

kinsey AT uno.cc.geneseo.edu