Homestead mailing list

[Rob <becida AT comcast.net>]

>Date:       Mon, 03 May 1999 09:26:15 -0400
>Reply-To: homestead AT listserv.oit.unc.edu
>Sender: owner-homestead AT listserv.oit.unc.edu
>From: Tvoivozhd <tvoivozd AT roanoke.infi.net>
>To: homestead AT listserv.oit.unc.edu
>Subject: Re: cheap housing (old earth floor postings, long)
>References: <3398-372CB702-13443 AT mailtod-102.iap.bryant.webtv.net> 
<372CD0A0.A35DBDFF AT roanoke.infi.net> <003001be9501$74af3d20$31f49dd0@pent200>
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>
>
>Smith wrote: list!
>Evelyn Aberdeen WA
>
>>>>tvoivozhd---for starters, here are three of the old postings on 
earth floors
>that I also lost, but Sojourner sent to me.  Were there others on this topic?
>
>I'll see if I can refind the animated website on making a dome over 
a sandpile.
>I know I posted a lot of stuff on earth domes of various types, but 
that's still
>in the dead hard-drive and I am slowly recompiling data ---haven't recovered
>what I want because in the past year search engines became portals, and for
>websites hits are more important than specificity on content.
>
>Old postings:
>
>
>
>
>tvoivozhd>>>yup. The Steen or Swearingen earthen floors are
>softer-feeling than wood, wear well, are easily repaired or replaced.
>Enjoy the luxury of Cordovan leather floors without the cost.
>
>
>
>tvoivozhd>>>most common finish treatment, and the one that produces a
>leather-appearance, is several applications of linseed oil---first one
>mixed with turpentine for penetration. Many possible additives in the
>mix. Swearingen favors psyllium. In Southwest U.S. and Mexica various
>plant juices are sometimes incorporated.
>
>Now probably deceased, Jack Bays (Bays Laboratory, Cedaredge, Colorado),
>originated many mixtures which were very successful in floors and walls.
>His basic formula (Rub-R-Slate) was 12 quarts of asphalt (bitumil)
>emulsion purchased from a road-contractor supply house, 8 pounds of
>cardboard or paper shredded in a garden-type chipper-shredder hammermill
>with a half-inch opening screen.
>
>This was mixed with a propellor-mixer in a fifty-five gallon barrel,
>adding to the above 12 gallons of clay-water mixture---varying the
>amount of water depending on whether ith result was to be sprayed or
>trowelled on like cake-frosting.
>
>There are three, (four counting calcium sulfate aka gypsum) common earth
>stabilizers, i.e., asphalt emulsion, Portland cement, and lime which are
>used in the base material of clay/sand dirt floors. Gypsum produces a
>quicker-setting, softer material---less resistant to water , though
>asphalt emulsion added will provide necessary water-resistance.
>
>Where sawdust is plentiful and cheap it is an alternative to an earthen
>floor. A sawdust floor used in South Africa is comprised of two parts
>sawdust (don't use any containing a lot of resin), one and one-half part
>sand, one part cement and one-quarter part lime. It should cure for ten
>days and then finished with linseed oil or floor wax. This is as hard
>and will wear as well as a hardwood floor.
>
>Whatever mix is chosen---make up lots of samples to be tested
>first---see what the material looks and feels like, how it resists
>abrasion, impact and moisture.
>
>Another question I forgot to answer related to a sheet of polyethylene
>under the four to six inches of poured and screeded flat clay/sand base
>material underlying the subsequently-added finish layer.
>
>It serves three purposes. Blocks infiltration of radon gas, blocks
>capillarity (wicking action), and blocks vapor-transmission. Except in
>desert areas, humidity under a finished floor approaches one hundred
>percent. Room air is, or should be much lower, and since water vapor
>tries to equalize pressure, it continually travels upward through the
>floor unless a vapor barrier is interposed.
>
>
>
>
>
>MAMATURTL1 AT aol.com wrote:
>
>>In a message dated 98-06-19 21:13:53 EDT, you write:
>
>><< Earth floors do not crack or powder >>
>
>>How are they kept smooth and not powdery? I read about the urine and
>lime, but seriously doubt that is done here. What do folks in the US use
>to keep the floor from cracking or powdering?
>
>>I appreciate that you included the websites, but currently am using a
>dinosaur processor that only allows me web access if and when it decides
>:o(
>
>>Thanks,
>>Beth
>
>
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Earthen floors #2
>Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 09:36:39 PST
>From: "Holly Deiser" <blackbirdridge AT hotmail.com>
>To: sojournr AT missouri.org
>
>FranksFarm AT aol.com wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>
>>Well, Tvo you are certainly helping me to refine my ideas. Muchas
>Gratias.
>
>>Sounds like the Earthen floors you described are a good way to
>go...rather than saw dust.
>
>>I'm just wondering about the labor required to screen, sift etc. what
>could be tons of material.
>
>tvoivozhd>>>as always, hands and makeshift equipment instead of power
>and commercial equipment, places a heavy burden on hands (and back).
>Vibrating screens can be made and sometimes rented, and a small
>front-end loader makes material handling a lot easier.
>
>
>
>>So let me recap my understanding. First excavate area build piers etc.
>for timber frame live loads, plates, anchors etc. Close in system.
>
>>At bottom of excavation...should I first put a 4" layer of gravel (what
>size) then put over it a plastic vapor barrier( what thichness?) then
>sand then the earthen floor mix.
>
>tvoivozhd>>> 3/4" to 1". It'll probably be sharp-edged crushed gravel
>instead of river-rock, so you don't want the weight above to cause the
>vapor barrier to puncture. Use a compactor on the gravel to smooth it
>and put down a couple layers of the heaviest polyethylene you can get,
>eight to 12 mils, or put down a layer of geotextile and a layer of
>polyethylene on top, followed by sand/clay mud-goop as subfloor..
>
>
>
>>Would you recommend using that floor throughout the house, or are there
>areas where other surfaces might be recommended.
>
>If I could indulge my preferences fully, I would put dirt floors
>everywhere but following:
>
>In high-traffic areas such as entrances I would install bricks, pavers
>or flagstone over sand, with subsequently-misted dry mortar-mix in the
>joints. Bricks tend to be a little more stable than pavers, flagstone
>more stable than either.. Probably not important, irregularity in brick
>elevation is often considered an esthetic improvement.
>
>I like floor drains in mudrooms, bath and kitchen---and the option to
>hose down the floor. If you don't, forget about them and either keep all
>other waste-lines and supply lines in raceways above the floor at
>junction of walls and floor and where floors change in elevation, or
>thicken the mud subfloor to receive them. Or (as your plumbing
>subcontractor will no doubt prefer), put them farther down. You don't
>need a jackhammer to get at them anyway, therefore in that case, seal
>the pipes well with commercial mastic-tape to the vapor barrier(s).
>
>In my mudroom, bathroom and kitchen (with floor-drains) I want all the
>spilled, hose or mop-water going down the drain, so in those areas I
>would probably put down a three-inch raised-lip slab which would anchor
>the drains well and to which I could tightly seal them.
>In those areas I would also probably use very heavy vinyl as flooring
>The Jack Bays mix would be impervious to water but would not give the
>options in color and pattern that exist in vinyl. I like light-colored,
>airy kitchens in contrast to earth-tone floors elsewhere.
>
>
>
>>In central Kentucky there is limestone base, and I assume a fairly
>heavy clay? Would a simple soil settling test be OK to guage clay
>content using Soil Composition Triangle? ? What percentage clay should I
>hope to achieve.
>
>tvoivozhd>>>use test-tube soil settling test to determine clay/sand
>ratio. Use same percentages as for brick or adobe. Ratios will vary
>since clay characteristics vary. Rule of thumb, not less than thirty
>percent sand and not less than 50% clay and silt, and around 15% water.
>Make test blocks. If there are excessive cracks, reduce clay content.
>
>
>
>>I'm not exactly sure how you mix the earth with the turpentined thinned
>linseed oil, or do you just pour it on the earten floor , and let it
>seep in.
>
>tvoivozhd>>>don't mix it in and don't pour it. You only want to put
>enough on at one time to dry (thumbprint-hard) before putting on the
>next application. Usually that takes ten days. Wipe it on with a cloth
>or roll it on and remove excess with a cloth
>
>>Also how long do you let it cure before adding the second coat.
>
>tvoivozhd>>>around ten days, depending upon temperature and humidity.
>The first coat should dry more quickly because of being thinned by
>turpentine or mineral spirits.
>
>
>
>>How much turpentine/linseed oil do you need per 100 square feet?
>
>tvoivozhd>>>I keep forgetting and it's been a long time since I sold my
>sailboat. Look at the Olympic linseed oil/mildew inhibitor URL I
>previously cited---that'll be pretty close.
>
>
>
>>You mentioned the second and third coatings of linseed oil should be
>carefully heated? to what temperature? Again how much linseed all do you
>need per 100sq' ft.
>
>tvoivozhd>>>the first coat you are going for maximum penetration, hence
>the 50% turpentine or mineral spirits. Subsequent coats you are building
>up an impervious membrane around the grains on the base of the first, so
>you want maximum liquid viscosity after it dries. However unadulterated
>linseed it too thick to penetrate well, so you have to temporarily
>reduce viscosity by heating (well below the flashpoint which would be
>dangerous). Don't directly heat it in a container over fire. I used to
>heat it in a double boiler until it poured like water---never checked
>the temperature, though it would have been well below 212 F---probably
>160 to 180 degee F.
>
>
>
>>How did your friend get that leather like look...did he add any special
>colored earth clays?
>
>tvoivozhd>>>no, in India there is a heavy iron content in the clay
>around Jamshedpur and its steel mill (source of iron ore), so except for
>the goat urine about which he was quite certain, it was basically the
>linseed that gave the leather-like appearance. John Swearingen who
>builds dirt floors here appears to verify that in his experience. I
>think the psyllium basically improves workability.
>
>
>
>>How do you ensure such a floor is level? and must you tamp it down
>mechanically?
>
>You should screed it like concrete----except you can do so with a much
>wetter mix and much more easily without worrying about premature setup.
>You probably don't even have to float it, though I would be inclined to
>do so to be sure the finish mudfloor goes on evenly.. Some people who
>want a more dense mud slab compact it. You should buy the $10.00 Steen
>booklet for a more authoritative description and track down in strawbale
>archives all the messages of John Swearingen on the subject.
>
>
>
>>Sorry for all the questions. I may actually do this. Unless labor ,
>time , $, difficulty of application make it cheaper to go with trusses
>and hard wood flooring. Thanks , again.
>
>>You are most generous in sharing your knowlkledge with all of us. May
>the Good Lord reward you for such efforts. frank
>
>>Also if glazed with all that linseed oil etc. wouldn't the surface be
>slippery.
>
>tvoivozhd>>>no. when each and every application dries thumbprint hard it
>is very smooth, but pretty much nonskid due to the sand content of the
>mud mix---and sticky until each application dries.
>
>
>
>
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Earthen floors #3
>Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 09:40:21 PST
>From: "Holly Deiser" <blackbirdridge AT hotmail.com>
>To: sojournr AT missouri.org
>
>FranksFarm AT aol.com wrote:
>
>>Hey,
>
>>Greetings, Jim!
>
>>Thanks for the comments on Poly Steel... good points, and match my own
>feelings except I didn't know about the thermal mass design problem Tvo
>mentioned. Thanks again , guys(BG)
>
>>Gee, when Tvo,Gene, and Vern etc. and are carrying on with the poteen
>and beer we are getting some great input from them. ROFL....from the
>"comic relief"(BG) not the " input"!
>
>>Tvo, I too have read about " earth /mud floors" but was concerned over
>possible moisture problems , especially from possible flood, water
>overflow etc. Will the linseed surface prevent same?
>
>tvoivozhd>>>I am actually more confident of dirt (clay/sand) and linseed
>than of sawdust mixes. The latter are feasible too, but require more
>care because of more absorptive sawdust. If the first application of
>linseed oil is thinned with 50% turpentine or mineral spirits for full
>penetration, and two unthinned (but carefully-heated) applications of
>linseed as sealant are used (dry thumbprint-hard between applications),
>surface spills won't matter. A full-flood with three or four feet of
>water standing in the living room, I don't know. To the extent it was
>fully-saturated with the turpentineor mineral spirits-thinned linseed
>oil, the tile would not be affected, but the six-inches of mud
>underneath would liquefy. If there was no furniture applying a
>differential-load, it would probably re-dry flat, but would take some
>weeks to do so. If the tile was not well saturated with thinned-linseed,
>I would expect the edges to curl in redrying. Shouldn't be a whole lot
>of trouble to re-dress the surface flat though---not like the
>destruction it would wreak on a wood floor.
>
>
>
>>I also have read with interest articles about Middle Eastern " Adobe"/
>"Pise" homes that are actually glazed by fires intentionally set by the
>owners.
>
>tvoivozhd>>>practice and book by Nader Khalil "Ceramic Houses and Earth
>Architecture" (currently engaged in building freeform modified sandbag
>houses). Interesting chapter on modelmaking too.
>
>
>
>>But of course temperatures, climate there are very different from the
>temperate, more humid climate in central Kentucky.
>
>tvoivozhd>>>very strong, would work anywhere, though need an insulated
>double-shell in Kentucky.
>
>
>
>>I'm wondering whether the earth type floors you've been talking about
>could be so fired, to produce a tile like floor?It would seem that you
>might be able to pattern such a floor before firing to produce
>interesting/decorative effects.
>
>tvoivozhd>>>sure, though you would have to have a kiln, learn something
>about glazes--not for unglazed pavers.. A fired-glaze doesn't look much
>like it does when it is dipped or painted on. You would have to have or
>buy clay, normally a pugmill and extruder for uniform thickness,
>appearance and strength. One of the magazine subscriptions I hardly have
>time to read any more, and one I highly recommend is "Ceramics Monthly",
>P.O. Box 6102, Westerville, Ohio 43086-6102.
>
>
>
>>Also doesn't the type of " earth" mix matter....or can just plain
>ordinary " dirt" be used regardless of it's composition. Obviously local
>soils can vary tremendously. Some might have far more clay(
>desireable???) others more sand( less desireable??) or some combination
>of those items.
>
>tvoivozhd>>>You need a high percentage of clay, with no organics in the
>base material. Yes, there are different compositions of clay suitable
>for different purposes. See Ceramics magazine for formulas both of clay
>and glazes.
>
>
>
>>Fire will probably sterilize soils, what about the other methods? What
>about life in the soil...worms etc. What about rocks....does soil need
>to be sifted or are rocks up to a certain size a good thing or no?
>
>tvoivozhd>>>for earthen floors you use only sifted and graded clay or
>sand, which is thoroughly mixed until it looks and feels like kids
>modeling-clay.. Sift out organics, stones. You can, Mexican oldtimers
>say you should, use pebbles in adobe walls to help anchor adobe plaster,
>but not in floors.
>
>
>
>>Also earth can give off odors especially when there's a good deal of
>humidity will the linseed seal prevent that? Won't the linseed surface
>treatment need frequent renewal? It also seems tah linseed once common
>is now fairly expensive. No any cheap sources? What kind of
>linseed...boiled?
>
>tvoivozhd>>>adobe and adobe-lime plastered strawbale houses, for all
>practical purposes are odorless. You could add borax or other
>mold-inhibitor, but I've only read one report where it was necessary to
>do so---probably because they didn't remove the organics prior to mixing
>the mud. Boiled linseed generally has a dryer such as cobalt in it. Raw
>linseed takes a very long time to dry and until it does, remains sticky.
>Make test samples as always.
>
>The tile surface probably should receive a light application of linseed
>every two to five years, depending upon usage.
>
>Linseed no longer is as cheap since sail gave way to steam and producing
>Naval Stores (pitch) for ship bottoms and linseed oil for cordage became
>unimportant---and the colonists ceased growing flax for linen and
>linseed oil.. It is still produced as a food-oil and paint-dryer for
>oil-paints---mostly overseas. U.S. grew almost three million acres of
>flax through mid-1960's, but has since declined.
>
>Some sources (don't know current prices)
>
>http://www.alnoroil.com/drying.html (raw linseed oil)
>http://www.alnoroil.com/ http://www.eco-house.com/primer261.htm
>http://www.ppgaf.com/ocoloroil.htm (Olympic with various stains,
>waterproof agent, mildew inhibitor)
>http://www.artmetal.com/brambush/forum/bramyak2/messages/64.html
>(linseed oil and beeswax makes a fine finish for wood, for metals, for
>earthen floors---but beeswax is expensive).
>http://www.netusa1.net/~spost/wax.html (another beeswax, mineral
>spirits, linseed formula used as furniture polish).
>http://www.crest.org/efficiency/strawbale-list-archive/9606/msg00392.html
>(pouring a mud floor and finishing with linseed oil--Swearingen)
>
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