Kata Markon

["Eric Eve" <eric.eve AT harris-manchester.oxford.ac.uk>]

Just for information, and because I wrote this before reading the subsequent
contributions to this discussion that should probably close it, I'll respond
to the points Joe raises.

Joe Alward writes:

> In a message dated 10/17/02 1:31:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> eric.eve AT harris-manchester.oxford.ac.uk writes:

<< I can't speak for American usage, but whence do you derive this rule for
British usage? H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler _The King's English_ devote a
couple of pages to this question and certainly do not espouse the rule you
state, but recommend that the punctuation mark should go before the closing
quote mark only if it is part of the quote.  >>

> That's interesting, Eric.  Are you sure the punctuation marks Fowler et al
> were referring to were not just the question mark and the exclamation
mark?
> They must be put inside the quotation mark only if they are part of the
> quote, of course.

ERIC
Yes, I'm quite sure; the rule Fowler and Fowler give (pp. 291-92 of the 1973
Oxford Paperback edition [reprint of the 3rd edition of 1931]) is

"1. The true stops should never stand before the second quotation-mark
except
(a) when, as in dialogue given without framework, complete sentences
entirely isolated and independent in grammar are printed as quotations. Even
in these, it must be mentioned that the true stops are strictly unnecessary;
but is the full stop (which alone can here be in question) is used in
deference to universal custom, it should be before the quotation-mark.
(b) when a stop is necessary to divide the first fragment of an interrupted
quotation from the second."

On p. 292 they then give as an example of rule 1:
> It is enough for us to reflect that 'Such shortlived wits do wither as
they grow'.

> A check of the major British newspapers and magazines show that more often
> then not, the comma and period go before the closing quotation mark.
> Unfortunately, the editors sometimes will put the period inside in the
> quotation marks in one place, and in the same paragraph they will put the
> period or comma outside.  They often seem, like Goodacre, not to be
> consistent, or else they don't care.  Now, irrespective of what Fowler et
al
> may say, it would seem to me that if the King James Bible exhibits not a
> single instance of the comma or period appearing after the closing
quotation
> mark, it makes sense for Bible scholars to use the same rule.

I believe older editions of the King James Bible (Authorised Version)
printed in Britain don't use quotation marks at all, so what you are seeing
is the convention employed by a later publisher, not a guide to accepted
British usage.

JOE
>  At the very
> least, authors need to pick a rule, and stick to it, rather than flip a
coin
> each time.

ERIC
Agreed; but employing the rule laid down by Fowler & Fowler (whom I tend to
take as a guide) or by, say, a publisher such as Sheffield Academic Press
(to whose house style I was obliged to conform by recent book) will result
in stops sometimes appearing before the closing quotation mark and sometimes
after; this is not inconsistency but rather the result of the consistent
application of a rule. I'm afraid I haven't checked Goodacre's work to see
if he is conforming to such a rule (but I see L.J. Swain has)!

Best wishes,

Eric
----------------------------------
Eric Eve
Harris Manchester College, Oxford