Kata Markon

["K. Hanhart" <K.Hanhart AT net.HCC.nl>]

K. Hanhart wrote:
> 
> Ted Weeden suggested 7
> >"methodological guidelines to locate the Markan community.  I
> > would appreciate any suggestions or critical feed back
> > Before the 1950's  most scholars located the community at
> > Rome... Since the 1950's the tide of scholarly opinion has begun to > 
> > shift to locating Mark somewhere in the Syrian or Palestinian region.

> Dear Ted,
>  It is true that since scholars such as Marxsen, Theissen and of > course 
> you yourself, - to name but a few -, the Roman provenance of > Mark has
> been seriously questioned, based on 'internal' evidence. But with
> Patrick Rogers I believe the available external evidence cannot be
> dismissed so easily. Your "shifting tide" suggests that this 'evidence'
> would be so strong and the number of scholars going against Roman
> provenance so overwhelming, that your new hypothesis must replace the
> classical one.
> This surely is not the case. Your seven guidelines, it seems to me, are
> based mainly on your interpretation "he goes before you into Galilee"
> (14,29; 16,7) and what you have called Mark's "vendetta against the
> disciples", a theory you valiantly defended. All other arguments flow
> from the basic assumption that Mark expected the parousia totake place
> somewhere in Galilee. Hence Galilee is "Mark's eschatological universe",
> the Markan "Mecca". The picture you draw of his community is of a rather
> narrow minded sectarian group, at odds with the larger ecclesia. You
> have not made clear, however, why in that case Mark was adopted into the
> canon and (given Markan priority) why Matthew would have adopted the
> main part of Mark, even granted that Mt made important corrections re.
> the disciples. Since Norman Perrin a goodly number of scholars , rightly
> I think, no longer believe Mark wanted his 'opened tomb' story to be
> taken literally, although most conservative exegetes still accept this
> and fundamentalists swear by its truth. But accepting Mark wanted to
> convey a truth symbolically, the alternative to a Galilean provenance of
> Mark is interpreting "he will go before you into Galilee" in terms of
> the Galil ha-goyim. Thus Matthew typified Jesus' ministry in Galilee > (Mt 
> 4,16). For Mark's geographical structure is based on the idea that as
> Jesus drew crowds of Judeans and Gentiles in Galilee and yet had to
> suffer so his disciples would make converts but also would suffer. But > 
> the hermeneutic circile requires that vice versa since his disciples > did 
> make converts in the diaspora among Judeans and esp. Gentiles and > 
> suffered in the real world,  Mark had Jesus in his narrative world > > 
> battle in principle with the same 'enemies' that the ecclesia faced in > 
> the real world (f.i. Herodians and Pharizees in 3,6 (cmp the > persecution 
> under Herod Agrippa I, Acts 12,1). These 'enemies' are in > Mark clearly a 
> retrojection into the life of Jesus, and donot reflect > the real world of 
> Jesus.
> But in Mark's post-70 revision Mark's audience should understand that > 
> what happened to them, Jesus had already faced and he had prevailed. > This 
> would fit in with the idea
> that  John Mark was a youth in Jerusalem under Agrippa I and had > worked 
> with Paul and Peter in Rome. (He moved possibly to Alexandria)
>  I believe we ought to assume that 1st and 2nd cent christians were in a
> far better position to understand the riddlesome Gospel of Mark than
> 21st Century Westerners, and therefore start with the assumption that men 
> like
> Papias knew what he was talking about.
> The view that Mark wrote a Christian Passover Haggadah hasnot as yet > been 
> evaluated. The midrashic approach sheds surprising new light also > on 
> Mark's enigmatic geography. It would place Mark squarely within the > 
> post-70 tradition of the ecclesia in stead of a little known rural > sect 
> near Lake Huleh very much at odds with the broader Jesus > > movement. What 
> is your reaction to my interpretation of Mark 14,29; > 16,8 based on 
> Montefiore's suggestion? Mark's epilog is a midrash on 
> LXX Isa 22,16 and 33,16. If indeed the Isaian phrase "a tomb hewn from > 
> the rock" is a metaphor for the temple soon to be destroyed,  exegetes > 
> may finally move beyond the diastase - rather the abyss - that 
> separates Karl Barth and Rudolph Bultmann (a literal or a mythical 
> 'empty' tomb'}. This impasse has frustrated the exegesis of the
> Gospel far too long. Mark's open tomb epilog indeed refers to a solid > 
> historical event - the vision (anablepoo) of the destruction of the > 
> temple which the women see in fear and trembling sothat they flee from > 
> the scene (16,8) doesnot deal with an 'empty' tomb, but with the > 
> traumatic event that would turn the tide for all Judeans. But > Mark's 
> audience needed to be reminded of what they had believed aall > along that 
> God had raised Jesus from the dead. He was now sitting at > the Right Hand. 
> He would go before them. 

 
> In a following contribution I will discuss the 7 guidelines in some
> detail.
> 
>  cordially.
> 
> Karel Hanhart
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Guidelines for locating the Markan community
> > From: "Philip B. Lewis" <Phil AT sedona.net>
> > Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:03:10 -0700
> > X-Message-Number: 2
> >
> > This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF82AC.F2C44CC0
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> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> > On February 29 Ted Weeden wrote an interesting post on "Guidelines for =
> > locating the Markan community." At one point, listing places with which =
> > Mark seems most familiar, he said:
> >
> > >They are (1) Jerusalem and its surrounding area, which
> > includes such named places as Bethany, Bethphage, the Mount of Olives =
> > and
> > the Garden of Gethsemane and (2) places on the northern rim of the Sea =
> > of
> > Galilee, which include Capernaum, Gennersaret, Bethsaida and Dalmanutha =
> > and
> > the route northward from Bethsaida to Caesarea Philippi.<
> >
> > A small observation: "Dalmanutha" has long been known to be an error. =
> > There was no such "place". The best explanation I know of is that =
> > originally GMark named a "Magadan", as in the parallel Matthean account. =
> > An early editor entered a marginal correction, "Delta, Ma (not) Nun" =
> > indicating the place name "Magdala". A subsequent copyist assimilated =
> > the correction to the text yielding "Dalmanutha." Understood in that =
> > way, Mk.8.10 poises Jesus on the way to the fish processing village of =
> > the Gospel's "Boat Source" where the Woman With a Hemorrhage is healed. =
> > Magdala lay at the southern reach of the plain of Gennesaret.
> >
> > Ted is to be commended for pointing out that the Sayings Source, Q, =
> > probably originated in the Galilee, as GMark may have also. In my =
> > judgment, "Q1" and GMark emerged as contemporaries, while a kind of =
> > "dialogue" can be sensed between them, hence the "overlaps." Depictions =
> > of Jesus' Baptism, Temptation and the prophetic Gospel Prologue (1.1-3) =
> > have been developed and expanded upon in the latest stratum of Q, not =
> > the other way around (original to Q and reworked by Mark).
> >
> > Consequently, if GMark and Q were developed in the same neighborhood, =
> > they both can be dated (if that is important) in the late 60's. A =
> > pertinent question the two raise is: Why were Gospels written? For what =
> > were they substitutes? Can it be that the murders of Jacob, Paul and =
> > Peter, each a leader in the early church, made it necessary to compile =
> > resources to which believers could appeal as they worked out questions =
> > of authority?=20
> >
> > Philip B. Lewis, HR, Presbytery of Plains and Peaks,
> >
> > Sawmill Cove, Cottonwood, AZ
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF82AC.F2C44CC0
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> >         charset="iso-8859-1"
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> >
> > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> > <HTML><HEAD>
> > <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
> > http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
> > <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
> > <STYLE></STYLE>
> > </HEAD>
> > <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
> > <DIV>
> > <P>On February 29 Ted Weeden wrote an interesting post on "Guidelines =
> > for=20
> > locating the Markan community." At one point, listing places with which =
> > Mark=20
> > seems most familiar, he said:</P>
> > <P>&nbsp;</P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
> > <P>&gt;They are (1) Jerusalem and its surrounding area, =
> > which<BR>includes such=20
> > named places as Bethany, Bethphage, the Mount of Olives and<BR>the =
> > Garden of=20
> > Gethsemane and (2) places on the northern rim of the Sea of<BR>Galilee, =
> > which=20
> > include Capernaum, Gennersaret, Bethsaida and Dalmanutha and<BR>the =
> > route=20
> > northward from Bethsaida to Caesarea Philippi.&lt;</P>
> > <P>A small observation: "Dalmanutha" has long been known to be an error. =
> > There=20
> > was no such "place". The best explanation I know of is that originally =
> > GMark=20
> > named a "Magadan", as in the parallel Matthean account. An early editor =
> > entered=20
> > a marginal correction, "Delta, Ma (not) Nun" indicating the place name=20
> > "Magdala". A subsequent copyist assimilated the correction to the text =
> > yielding=20
> > "Dalmanutha." Understood in that way, Mk.8.10 poises Jesus on the way to =
> > the=20
> > fish processing village of the Gospel's "Boat Source" where the Woman =
> > With a=20
> > Hemorrhage is healed. Magdala lay at the southern reach of the plain of=20
> > Gennesaret.</P>
> > <P>Ted is to be commended for pointing out that the Sayings Source, Q, =
> > probably=20
> > originated in the Galilee, as GMark may have also. In my judgment, "Q1" =
> > and=20
> > GMark emerged as contemporaries, while a kind of "dialogue" can be =
> > sensed=20
> > between them, hence the "overlaps." Depictions of Jesus' Baptism, =
> > Temptation and=20
> > the prophetic Gospel Prologue (1.1-3) have been developed and expanded =
> > upon in=20
> > the latest stratum of Q, not the other way around (original to Q and =
> > reworked by=20
> > Mark).</P>
> > <P>&nbsp;</P>
> > <P>Consequently, if GMark and Q were developed in the same neighborhood, =
> > they=20
> > both can be dated (if that is important) in the late 60's. A pertinent =
> > question=20
> > the two raise is: Why were Gospels written? For what were they =
> > substitutes? Can=20
> > it be that the murders of Jacob, Paul and Peter, each a leader in the =
> > early=20
> > church, made it necessary to compile resources to which believers could =
> > appeal=20
> > as they worked out questions of authority? </P>
> > <P>Philip B. Lewis, HR, Presbytery of Plains and Peaks,</P>
> > <P>Sawmill Cove, Cottonwood, AZ</P></FONT><FONT=20
> > size=3D2></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF82AC.F2C44CC0--
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: Guidelines for Locating the Markan Community
> > From: "Patrick Rogers" <patrogers AT eircom.net>
> > Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:35:22 -0000
> > X-Message-Number: 3
> >
> > This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BF82FC.E1E03540
> > Content-Type: text/plain;
> >         charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> > > would appreciate any suggestions or critical feed back  > Ted Weeden
> > > (Papias,  etc., now discounted) for information> about Mark's =
> > community,=20
> >
> > Thanks for your most interesting & detailed suggested criteria for =
> > finding the community's location within the Gospel text.  But I wonder =
> > can we be quite so dismissive of the witness of Papias, Irenaeus etc. =
> > whose ideas about the Gospels' origins may be based on something more =
> > than wishful thinking, or mere speculation.  Certainly, their =
> > "traditional" views need to be corroborated in some ways from the actual =
> > text. But to offload them as utterly unfounded may turn out to be a =
> > regrettable hubris, for which another generation of Bible scholars will =
> > smile at us.
> > IMHO, there is little worth in citing that "the tide of scholarly =
> > opinion has begun to shift" in one direction or another. This is more =
> > difficult to measure than sea-tides, and perhaps no more durable. =20
> > In light of the wide diversity of views on the subject, the late Ray =
> > Brown opined just four years ago that as we "cannot know precisely the =
> > locale addressed by Mark" we had better focus on what can be deduced =
> > about the addressees:  These consisted - at least in part - in part of =
> > Greek speakers who did not know Aramaic, and lived in an area where =
> > Latin had influenced Greek vocabulary; they needed at least some Jewish =
> > customs to be explained to them (NT Intro, 163).  If all of this fits =
> > with the area around Caesarea Philippi, then maybe..
> >
> > BTW, have you documentation for placing Bethsaida "east of the Jordan"?  =
> > Its ruins as now located are surely well to the west of where river =
> > meets lake.
> > _________________________________
> > (Patrick Rogers,  Mount Argus,   Dublin 6W)
> >
> > "Once you begin to lose your memory, just forget it!"
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BF82FC.E1E03540
> > Content-Type: text/html;
> >         charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> > <HTML><HEAD>
> > <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
> > http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
> > <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
> > <STYLE></STYLE>
> > </HEAD>
> > <BODY>
> > <DIV>&gt; would appreciate any suggestions or critical feed =
> > back&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;=20
> > Ted Weeden<BR>&gt; (Papias,&nbsp; etc., now discounted) for =
> > information&gt;=20
> > about Mark's community, </DIV>
> > <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> > <DIV>Thanks for your most interesting &amp; detailed suggested criteria =
> > for=20
> > finding the community's location within the Gospel text.&nbsp; But I =
> > wonder can=20
> > we be quite so dismissive of the witness of Papias, Irenaeus etc. whose =
> > ideas=20
> > about the Gospels' origins may be based on something more than wishful =
> > thinking,=20
> > or mere speculation.&nbsp; Certainly, their "traditional" views need to =
> > be=20
> > corroborated in some ways from the actual text. But to offload them as =
> > utterly=20
> > unfounded may turn out to be a regrettable <EM>hubris</EM>, for which =
> > another=20
> > generation of Bible scholars will smile at us.</DIV>
> > <DIV>IMHO, there is little worth in citing that "the tide of scholarly =
> > opinion=20
> > has begun to shift" in one direction or another. This is more difficult =
> > to=20
> > measure than sea-tides, and perhaps no more durable.&nbsp; </DIV>
> > <DIV>In light of the wide diversity of views on the subject, the late =
> > Ray Brown=20
> > opined just four years ago that as we "cannot know precisely the =
> > <EM>locale=20
> > </EM>addressed by Mark" we had better focus on what can be deduced about =
> > the=20
> > addressees:&nbsp; These consisted - at least in part - in part of Greek =
> > speakers=20
> > who did not know Aramaic, and lived in an area where Latin had =
> > influenced Greek=20
> > vocabulary; they needed at least some Jewish customs to be explained to =
> > them=20
> > <EM>(NT Intro</EM>, 163).&nbsp; If all of this fits with the area around =
> >
> > Caesarea Philippi, then maybe..</DIV>
> > <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> > <DIV>BTW, have you documentation for placing Bethsaida "east of the=20
> > Jordan"?&nbsp; Its ruins as now located are surely well to the west of =
> > where=20
> > river meets lake.</DIV>
> > <DIV>_________________________________<BR>(Patrick Rogers,&nbsp; Mount=20
> > Argus,&nbsp;&nbsp; Dublin 6W)</DIV>
> > <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> > <DIV>"Once you begin to lose your memory, just forget=20
> > it!"<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BF82FC.E1E03540--
> >
> > ---
> >
> > END OF DIGEST
> >
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