Compost Teas: 24 hour, EM, IM, BD & fermented plant extracts

[Merla Barberie <herbnmerla AT supersat2.net>]

I am "earthfroglady" at herbnmerla AT supersat2.net on yahoo.com.  I just tried 
to join and "compost tea" was not available in a search.  Please join me.  
It's always such a hassle.  Thanks

Merla Barberie

compostteas-request AT lists.ibiblio.org wrote:

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>    1. Re: Compostteas digest, Vol 1 #90 - 11 msgs (m.norsen AT attbi.com)
>    2. Migration to yahoo (Tom Jaszewski)
>    3. IMPORTANT NOTICE!. WE ARE MOVING TO MAKE IT EASIER (Jeff Lowenfels)
>    4. Black spot in apples (Graeme Reid)
>    5. FW: [Compostteas] Effective Microorganisms (Ryan, Matthew)
>    6. re: Compost tea sampling (Soil Foodweb, Inc.)
>    7. Re: Corn Gluten (The Grahams) (Soil Foodweb, Inc.)
>    8. Re: Soil: CT vs Organism Foods (Lmvine1 AT cs.com) (Soil Foodweb, Inc.)
>    9. Re: Doc Ing-HAM  and the feeding rate (Soil Foodweb, Inc.)
>   10. Re: the feeding rate (Soil Foodweb, Inc.)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: m.norsen AT attbi.com
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Cc: Scott AT happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu, Alexander AT happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu
> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 19:18:30 +0000
> Subject: [Compostteas] Re: Compostteas digest, Vol 1 #90 - 11 msgs
>
> Scott and all about DO2 meters  Before the meter, happy,
> but dumb?  Yes the meter can ruin your family life until
> you get it and brewer under control.  Not having a meter
> does not prevent anaerobic tea.  Having a meter does not
> prevent anaerobic tea.  Having a meter and not having it
> or the brew under conrol may destroy martial bliss.
>
> None of this is news.
>
> The meter-  be ready to let the meter settle down before
> you start to tweek it or use it.  Dry and exposed to air
> it takes 5 to 15 + minutes, seems like forever to settle
> down when first turned on.  Then calibrate. Then use. If
> the probe stays static in CT for a few minutes bacteria
> or fungi or crud builds up on the probe which then
> returns a depressed O2 reading.  Its gotta move rather
> briskly in the CT to get a good reading.  A reading of
> 3.0 static can raise to 5.+ with brisk movment.
>
> You are probably ahead of me on this. I hope so.
>
> The CT will go anaerobic in spite of all you can do if
> you over load the nutrients.  I think Carol Eddington
> and others who have worked with CT have reported that
> less is better.
>
> Crowding a lot of tea base (compost) and nutrients will
> look good during the early hour or so of a brew, but
> when the bacteria begin to thrive and begin to reach the
> numbers you want if there is still a lot of nutrition
> left they will use O2 faster than typical brewers can
> furnish it.  Faster than water can absorb from LOTS of
> aeration activity.  At least I think that is what cause
> a couple of my brews to go down in O2.
>
> Finally there are many things about CT that I have yet
> to learn so consider all of those and tell me if these
> ideas helped.  Jeffs "list" is a learning experience.
>
> Regarding talking to your friend about CT,  always mask
> your true frustration with joy and optimism mixed with
> great stuff  and flowers you bring her, with evident
> love, from your garden. Don't mention that CT did it.
> Let her guess.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> From: "Tom Jaszewski" <tomj AT lvcm.com>
> To: <Compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:17:41 -0700
> Subject: [Compostteas] Migration to yahoo
>
> We are looking to migrate to yahoo groups.
> follow this link and sign up....
> JOIN NOW, IT'S EASY:
>
> 1) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site by clicking on this link:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/i?i=SShV4j-sDim1Ty6rmJdNR-RvKRg&e=tomj%40lvcm%2Ecom
>
>   (If clicking doesn't work, "Cut" and "Paste" the line above into your
>    Web browser's address bar.)
>
> -OR-
>
> 2) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send"
>    in your email program
>
> If you do not wish to join the compost_tea group, please
> ignore this invitation.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> From: "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff AT gardener.com>
> To: <compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 15:19:23 -0800
> Subject: [Compostteas] IMPORTANT NOTICE!. WE ARE MOVING TO MAKE IT EASIER
>
> FOLKS,
>
> Many have complained about the list software. And it is bad. Perry Clutts
> and Tom Jaszewski looked into YAHOO and it is much better. MUCH BETTER.
>
> So, as list "owner" I have made an executive decision:  As of today we are
> going to try and migrate this list to YAHOO as it is easier to administer
> for us, and easier to use for you.  For example, you can use your own
> computer settings...html or plain text or whatever. You can post files such
> as test results. You can post photo's. We can have polls and all sorts of
> other stuff.
>
> WE KNOW THIS IS A PAIN IN THE BUTT FOR SOME, BUT IT WILL BE EASIER ONCE YOU
> ARE IN THE NEW SYSTEM.
>
> Sooo, here is the general info: You will have to join Yahoo. It is free:
>
>       Post message: compost_tea AT yahoogroups.com
>       Subscribe:  compost_tea-subscribe AT yahoogroups.com
>       Unsubscribe:  compost_tea-unsubscribe AT yahoogroups.com
>       List owner:  compost_tea-owner AT yahoogroups.com
>
> This is very easy, free and won't hurt. After that, go to the site and see
> what we put up to show how much easier and better it really is.
>
> And, yes, Dr. Elaine and her staff have been notified!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:44:44 +1200
> From: Graeme Reid <herbmark.nz AT xtra.co.nz>
> Organization: Medicinal herb production and marketing
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: [Compostteas] Black spot in apples
>
> Dear CT enthusiasts ,
>
> I am an organic grower in New Zealand and a collegue of Bill Quinn .
>
> I currently produce two certified products for commercial growers in
> NZ , one being a seaweed product for foliar feeding and one being a
> solid vermicast product .
>
> We are currently building a CT machine to supply our existing client
> base .
>
> I recently visited a large producing area of apples in NZ with their
> main problem being Black spot .
>
> Is there anyone out there that has had experience with the use of
> compost teas in the commercial organic apple industry who can give me
> some feedback on sucess rates as well as application details .
>
> Any experience anyone has had here would be of great benefit and give
> these apple growers a starting point .
>
> Regards
> Graeme Reid
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> From: "Ryan, Matthew" <matthew.ryan AT rodaleinst.org>
> To: "'Compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org'" <Compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: FW: [Compostteas] Effective Microorganisms
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:45:35 -0400
>
> Dear Compost Tea Brewers,
>
> Last week I sent out this message about EM (effective microorganisms) and I
> received one reply about how incomparable EM is to compost tea as far as
> species diversity.  But I still have a few questions.
>
> The first, of course, is about Elaine's response that Mr. Teuton forwarded
> me.  In it she describes EM as strictly bacterial, but that contradicts my
> understanding of the classification of certain microorganisms (listed in the
> message below).  Could someone please attempt to clarify this.
>
> My second question is related to CT recipes.  Has anyone tried to
> incorporate EM into their CT recipe?  As far as the cost of EM, I have
> access to a very large quantity of EM that was donated to us at The Rodale
> Institute.  If there is anyone out there that would like to try it out, I
> would be willing to send it to you (you would have to pay for the postage)
> if I was to get the OK from the distributor, which I don't think will be a
> problem.
>
> In the mean time have a nice day!
>
> Matthew Ryan
> Research Technician
> The Rodale Institute
> 611 Siegfriedale Road
> Kutztown, PA 19530
> matthew.ryan AT rodaleinst.org
> (610) 683-1405
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ryan, Matthew
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 4:34 PM
> To: 'Frank Teuton'
> Cc: 'Compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org'
> Subject: RE: [Compostteas] Effective Microorganisms
>
> Hello Frank,
>
> Thanks for the response from Elaine about EM, but now I am only more
> confused.
>
> In the response Elaine states:
>
> "EM has no fungi.  Just bacteria and actinobacteria (used to be called
> actinomycetes, but they ARE NOT fungi).  There are No Fungi in EM."
>
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/compostteas/2002q2/000105.html
>
> Now I am looking at the label for the EM that I have and it lists the
> organisms that are supposed to be in it.  Included are Aspergillus oryzae,
> Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Candida utilis.  I was always under the impression
> that these organisms are indeed fungi.  Is there something that I am
> missing?
>
> Matthew Ryan
> Research Technician
> The Rodale Institute
> 611 Siegfriedale Road
> Kutztown, PA 19530
> matthew.ryan AT rodaleinst.org
> (610) 683-1405
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Teuton [mailto:fteuton AT sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:25 PM
> To: Ryan, Matthew
> Subject: Re: [Compostteas] Effective Microorganisms
>
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/compostteas/2002q2/000105.html
>
> FYI
>
> Frank Teuton
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:36:27 -0500
> From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info AT soilfoodweb.com>
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
> Subject: [Compostteas] re: Compost tea sampling
>
> Hi to the list -
>
> Jeff Lowenfels wrote about the tea going anaerobic and thus getting no 
> active fungi when his sample sat someplace too long.  We see this quite 
> often.  We always put the date of arrival of your sample on the 
> prelimninary SFI report form so you can tell if it sat too long.  Get your 
> money back if they don't get it to us overnight.  We point out to you, on 
> the final SFI report form (it
> takes me a day or so to look at the results, but you get the preliminary 
> report in 5 to 12 hours of the arrival of the tea in the lab), whether it 
> is likely that the tea went anaerobic during shipping, or not.
>
> We're doing some research showing that when the tea drops below 5.5 to 6.0 
> ppm, the bacteria that are growing then will attack the fungal hyphae.  We 
> do not detect the fungi as active any longer.  The possible mechansims for 
> this are many, and we are trying to determine which mechanism for the loss 
> of activity is the important one.
>
> We have some great pictures of the fungi being attacked, so anyone coming 
> to my talks in the next couple months will see these pictures.  They will 
> undoubtedly be in the next edition of the Compost Tea Brewing Manual.
>
> But please note the oxygen levels where the fungi are attacked by bacteria. 
>  If you have your tea maker in the hot sun, and you put normal amounts of 
> your starter nutrients into the tea maker, you may be going anaerobic.  
> Bruce Elliott pointed out to me the oxygen tables on the USGS web site 
> (Table 6.2) where you can see for yourself that at 21 to 27 degrees C, at 
> the elevation of
> Tempe, AZ, it is not possible to have had an aerobic tea brew with 
> additions of sugars, yeasts or barley malt.
>
> Adding ice packs - makes shipping more expensive, and usually the ice is 
> completely melted by the time it gets here.  The only way to tell if it 
> really helps is to ship the same tea with ice, and without ice.  Comparison 
> of the organism counts after they get here would be useful information.  I 
> recall doing this a time or two, and I recall (I just passed my 50th 
> birthday, so the
> memory can be faulty) that the ice made no difference in the counts.
>
> Off to Las Vegas now, to do a talk for Helena Chemical Co!
>
> Elaine
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:46:55 -0500
> From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info AT soilfoodweb.com>
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
> Subject: [Compostteas] Re: Corn Gluten (The Grahams)
>
> > Hi The Grahams -
>
> What exactly is corn gluten?
>
> It is a complex carbon food resource, which is...... fungal food.  
> Manufacturers add a fair amount of nitrogen to it, so that as the fungi, 
> and some bacteria, use it as a food resource, they don't tie up all the of 
> nitrogen in your soil and kill all your plants.
>
> What's the correct ratio of nitrogen to balance the high C material?   Do 
> you suppose the makers of the product checked this out before they sold it? 
>  The balance used for the lawn is correct ratio for the grasses you want, 
> IF.....
>
> If you have a healthy foodweb in your lawn.  But, the ratio is correct for 
> grass.  Not perennial plants.
>
> What if all the organisms in your soil were killed, or dormant, or sick?  
> Will addition of corn gluten work then?  No.  Corn gluten is just a food 
> resource for the organisms that should be there.  Hard to see good results 
> if you don't have the organisms present in the soil to do the work for you. 
>  So, with the corn gluten you should?  Right, apply tea so you have the 
> needed organisms
> to do the job.
>
> So, will addition of corn gluten to tea be useful?  It should feed fungi, 
> correct?  The excess N will be taken up by the bacteria and fungi.  Once in 
> the soil, as long as you have the protozoa adn beneficial nematodes and 
> microarthropods, that N will be cycled into plant available forms.
>
> But what is the form of N in corn gluten?  Will that N help Fusarium or 
> Rhizoctonia?  Nitrate helps the Fusarium, ammonium helps Rhizotonia.  
> Better not be either of those forms.....
>
> More questions?  Please e-mail.....
>
> Elaine
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:53:02 -0500
> From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info AT soilfoodweb.com>
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
> Subject: [Compostteas] Re: Soil: CT vs Organism Foods (Lmvine1 AT cs.com)
>
> > Hi Dan -
>
> As long as you have the diversity of organisms you need, then addition of 
> the food to the soil works fine.  Compost tea is a way to deliver food and  
> the organisms to plant surfaces - both above ground and belowground - to 
> soil, to ponds,
> pools, lakes, etc.
>
> How do you know if you have the needed diversity?  Typically, the higher 
> the total bacteria and total fungi biomass, the better your diversity.  Not 
> a perfect relationship, but typically we can detect disease outbreaks, and 
> point them out to you.
>
> With many soils, lack of diversity is an issue.  Thus, applying compost, or 
> compost tea will deliver an inoculum of organisms that can improve the 
> diversity of your soil.  Build that diversity over time.
>
> Does compost work better than compost tea?  Compost has more food resources 
> than tea, but it is harder to transport, more expensive to apply than 
> compost tea.  But, your choice what you want to do.......
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Elaine
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:06:01 -0500
> From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info AT soilfoodweb.com>
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
> Subject: [Compostteas] Re: Doc Ing-HAM  and the feeding rate
>
> > Frank is correct.  And thank you Frank for pointing it out.  The name is 
> > an English one, not Norwegian.
>
> I'm a ham......   An Ing-ham.  Thank you for getting it straight.  
> Although, I'm bad with names too, so I can't get bent out of shape if 
> people don't catch the "h" instead of an "r".
>
> Yes, the feeding drip is an excellent idea in the summer.  Not needed when 
> temperatures are cool, but in the summer, it may be a very good idea.
>
> Please test, though, as you try this out to make certain we still get good 
> organism numbers, ok?
>
> Testing from a small operations' point of view is as follows:
>
> 1.  Brew the tea the way you want to test, and record color, smell, 
> temperature, foam, and feel.
>
> 2.  Brew a second time, and if you get the same results (color, smell, 
> temperature, foam and feel), then send a tea in to determine total and 
> active bacteria, total and active fungi (about $83 if you fill out the 
> submission form and send it with the sample and payment).
>
> 3.  If you have good organisms numbers, you're set.  If things are too low, 
> we will work with you (you get 15 minutes of FREE consultation with SFI 
> each time you sample) to figure out what went haywire and how to improve 
> it.  You go back to step 1 and try again.
>
> You should, fairly inexpensively, get to the point where you are making 
> good tea.  Maybe once a year, when you start up in the spring, you test 
> your tea with SFI just to make sure the tea maker is doing a good job, 
> nothings plugged, messed up, etc.
>
> OK?
>
> Elaine
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:32:46 -0500
> From: "Soil Foodweb, Inc." <info AT soilfoodweb.com>
> To: compostteas AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Organization: Soil Foodweb Inc.
> Subject: Re: [Compostteas] the feeding rate
>
> We all need to rememberthat Scott is in the middle of winter.  In the US, 
> we're in the middle of the summer, and hot and dry it is...
>
> When the temperature is low, I don't see any good reason to drip feed, but 
> I'm convincible.
>
> thnk of the organisms in your tea as being just like you.  If the water 
> temp is 63 F, would you think of reproduction?  Not very often, or only 
> under the right circumstances?  Same for them.
>
> Rates of reproduction slow down as it gets colder.  Fewer of the mass of 
> bacteria or fungi are interested in reproduction the colder it gets.
>
> In soil, there are cold-loving bacteria and fungi that are selected to wake 
> up and grow when things get cold.  Those bacteria and fungi are in your 
> tea, but they take longer than 24 hours to wake up and start to grow.  
> Typically, they take 3 to 4 weeks to wake up.  Once they are growing, they 
> have no competition, no predators, and they really take off.  The most 
> rapid rates of
> decomposition occur in the winter, under the snow.  If the soil is frozen, 
> these guys shut-down until the soil thaws.
>
> If you add food to cold water, reproduction in those conditions will be 
> slow, gaining slowly in speed until the cold-lovers finally get going.  We 
> don't brew long enough, typically, to reach that point.  But we could get 
> there, if you brew for three or four days when it's cool or cold.  The 
> oxygen probe will tell you when they finally start to grow.
>
> So, while you hate that DO probe, thing of the expensive testing you would 
> have to be doing with us to figure all this out if you didn't have that DO 
> probe!!!   So, the DO probe becomes a money saver, and a stern taskmaster.  
> It does not lie, and it tells you the truth all the time.  Ok, you have to 
> figure out how to calibrate it, but that's like learning how fast to drive 
> your
> tractor through the field in order to apply fertilizer at the correct rate.
>
> I'd love to put a SFI lab near you, but we have to have the data to make it 
> clear  to all your neighbors that they need to be testing too, or the lab 
> can't stay alive.  So, which comes first, the sample load to support the 
> lab, or the lab to convince the growers to do this testing?  ???
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Elaine
>
> --__--__--
>
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