discussion of the Creative Commons Metadata work

[Aaron Swartz <me AT aaronsw.com>]

Welcome to the list. This list is for discussing the CC Metadata work, 
describe on our website:

http://creativecommons.org/metadata/

--
Aaron [http://www.aaronsw.com] 4FAC4838B7D8D13FA6D92EDB4145521E79F0DF4B


> From uche.ogbuji AT fourthought.com Sun Aug  4 23:21:03 2002
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Subject: 4Suite CC record and comments
From: Uche Ogbuji <uche.ogbuji AT fourthought.com>
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I like the CC idea and approach.  A couple of things.  I'm already up to
my ears in mailing lists, so forgive me if I don't join, and please CC
me on any follow-ups.

I added a CC record for 4Suite software:

http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/4Suite/   (in "Local Resources"), directly
http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/4Suite/4Suite-cc.rdf

I also have a comment on the spec=, or really the example therein.  It
uses

<dc:creator><w:Person><dc:title>Yo-Yo
Dyne</dc:title></w:Person></dc:creator>

Is this a good idea?  Using a wordnet word seems rather sketchy.  Is
w:Person considered identical to, say w:Individual?  Also, hoe are
people guided if the creator is not a person?  I guessed w:Company. 
ANother person might guess w:Organization.  I think this becomes chaotic
too quickly.

Instead I suggest encouraging FOAF f:Person and the like, which derive
from the Wordnet equivalent.  Or perhaps even define an enumeration of
types for use in CC, deriving from Wordnet.


--
Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
Track chair, XML/Web Services One Boston: http://www.xmlconference.com/
Basic XML and RDF techniques for knowledge management, Part 7 -
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-think12.html
Keeping pace with James Clark -
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-jclark.html
Python and XML development using 4Suite, Part 3: 4RDF -
http://www-105.ibm.com/developerworks/education.nsf/xml-onlinecourse-bytitle/8A1EA5A2CF4621C386256BBB006F4CEC


> From me AT aaronsw.com Sun Aug  4 23:45:14 2002
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To: Uche Ogbuji <uche.ogbuji AT fourthought.com>
From: Aaron Swartz <me AT aaronsw.com>
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Many thanks for the feedback, Uche!

On Sunday, August 4, 2002, at 10:24  PM, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
> I added a CC record for 4Suite software:

Great! I'll keep a list on the metadata page for now...

> <dc:creator><w:Person><dc:title>Yo-Yo 
> Dyne</dc:title></w:Person></dc:creator>
>
> Is this a good idea?  Using a wordnet word seems rather 
> sketchy.  Is w:Person considered identical to, say 
> w:Individual?  Also, hoe are people guided if the creator is 
> not a person?  I guessed w:Company.  ANother person might guess 
> w:Organization.  I think this becomes chaotic too quickly.

Yep... I was thinking in the legal sense of Person but you have 
a good point. Perhaps I should just change this to 
rdf:Description. I don't really want to add a rather unrelated 
word to the CC vocabulary nor add another dependency...

Anyone else have any suggestions?
--
Aaron [http://www.aaronsw.com] 4FAC4838B7D8D13FA6D92EDB4145521E79F0DF4B


> From seth AT robustai.net Mon Aug  5 17:06:10 2002
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Reply-To: "Seth Russell" <seth AT robustai.net>
From: "Seth Russell" <seth AT robustai.net>
To: "cc-metadata" <cc-metadata AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Commercial licenses
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Recently Aaron sent me a pointer to a commercial licence.  My understanding
is that this license (see below) would allow free access to the source as
well as unrestrained Reproduction.  However it reserves the right to charge
royalties where the resource is sold for money.  Will creative commons be
supporting this kind of commercial licence ?  Will you be indexing these
resources in your databases ?   Did I describe my product and my chosen
licence correctly below?  RDF of this metadata available upon request.

Seth Russell

language: semenglish

(commercial open source free reproduction)
   type License;
   permits Reproduction;
   reserves Sale;
   seeAlso <http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/doc/AFPL/7.04/Public.htm>.
(sailor agents)
   title "Sailor Agents";
   creator [
       type Person;
       name "Seth Russell";
       mbox <mailto:seth AT robustai.net>];
   format pythonCode;
   license (commercial open source free reproduction);
   seeAlso <http://robustai.net/sailor/>;
   (sales contact) [mbox <mailto:seth AT robustai.net>].




> From me AT aaronsw.com Thu Aug  8 16:41:38 2002
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Ben Hammersley has integrated CC metadata into his RSS feed:
http://rss.benhammersley.com/index.rdf
http://rss.benhammersley.com/archives/001178.html#001178
http://rss.benhammersley.com/archives/001131.html#001131

Kevin Burton is adding it to Bonita and Repitle, his RSS readers:
http://www.peerfear.org/rss/permalink/1028766598.shtml

I've linked to both from the metadata home page:
http://creativecommons.org/metadata/

Please let me know about any more interesting developments.
--
Aaron Swartz [http://www.aaronsw.com] I am large, I contain multitudes.


> From dav AT danger-island.com Fri Aug  9 19:15:11 2002
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From: Dav Coleman <dav AT serve.com>
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I'm new to the whole RSS/RDF thing.

I've looked over http://creativecommons.org/metadata/spec and the recent
couple of examples of it put to use, but I have a few questions. The
answers to all of these are likely "It's a draft, stupid" but I am too
unsure of myself to be sure of that too.

1) Is this actually backed by anything yet? Are there any licences behind
sticking <permits rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/Reproduction"; />
in your RDF file?

2) What exactly is the http://creativecommons.org/licenses/bcfgi about?
What does bcfgi stand for?

3) 
> From this:
Permissions (rights granted by the license)

   * Reproduction (the work may be reproduced)
   * Distribution (the work (and, if authorized, derivative works) may be
   * distributed, publicly displayed, and publicly performed)
   * Derivative Works (derivative works may be created and reproduced)

Requirements (restrictions imposed by the license)

   * Notice (copyright and license notices must be kept intact)
   * Attribution (credit must be given to copyright holder and/or author)
   * Copyleft (derivative works, if authorized, must be licensed under the
   * same terms as the work)
   * Noncommercial (rights may not be exercised for commercial purposes)

I can see what these refer to:
 <permits rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/Reproduction"; />
 <permits rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/Distribution"; />
 <requires rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/Notice"; />
 <requires rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/Attribution"; />

So would the others be 

 <permits rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/Derivative"; />
 <requires rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/Copyleft"; />
 <requires rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/Noncommercial"; />

Thanks

--
Dav Coleman
http://www.danger-island.com/dav/

> From ben AT benhammersley.com Mon Aug 12 10:30:49 2002
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Morning all,

I've just uploaded mod_creativecommons to the RSS-DEV list's file
repository:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/files/Modules/Proposed/mod_CreativeCommons.html

It's dangerously first draft, and contains at least three mistakes. Help
spotting them is remarkably welcome.

(at this point on the rss-dev list I said I'd crossposted it, but I'm 
incompetent and so couldn't even manage that. Hence this new message. oh 
dear)

Note also also that I've not yet placed the references and
acknowledgements section into the document. It's all their fault, of
course, and they will be named in due course. All mistakes are my fault,
however. One should never listen to the cricket when one is doing RSS
stuff. Most distracting.


Ben
http://rss.benhammersley.com


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> From ben AT benhammersley.com Mon Aug 12 12:13:24 2002
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Morten Frederiksen wrote:

> > I've just uploaded mod_creativecommons to the RSS-DEV list's file
> > repository:
>
> I'm a little confused by the scope of the license statement.
> In the syntax section's first paragraph, you state that:
>
>  "An occurance of <cc:license> within any element implies the copyright of 
> the document contained with the rdf:about attribute of that element. So, in 
> the case of the <channel> element it is the feed itself, and not the document 
> pointed to by the <link> element."
>
> But, your own feed has, as many feeds do, but in contrast to the example, a 
> URI for the HTML document as the content of the channel rdf:about attribute - 
> that is, the rdf:about attribute and the link element has the same URI, as is 
> recommend in the RSS 1.0 spec. The same applies for items and images.

Indeed. Mea Culpa. That passage was utter bollocks. Excise it from your 
minds, gentle readers. It should read:

"As with any RDF elements, an occurance of <cc:license> within any 
element implies the copyright of the document contained with the 
rdf:about attribute of that parent element, and not the document pointed 
to by the <link> sub-element."

In other news, England have yet to beat India and the tension is getting 
to me. Other mistakes can be blamed on the Agakar's batting.


> From me AT aaronsw.com Mon Aug 12 14:30:41 2002
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On Monday, August 12, 2002, at 09:30  AM, Ben Hammersley wrote:
> It's dangerously first draft, and contains at least three mistakes. 
> Help
> spotting them is remarkably welcome.

I must be losing my touch. I read through it and couldn't find any.

One comment though: could we call it mod_cc instead of 
mod_creativecommons? I'd just like all the URIs to line up nicely.

Hm, should I put it at http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/cc/ or 
http://web.resource.org/cc/rssmodule/ ?

Great work!
--
Aaron Swartz [http://www.aaronsw.com] I am large, I contain multitudes.


> From ben AT benhammersley.com Mon Aug 12 14:39:39 2002
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Aaron Swartz wrote:
> On Monday, August 12, 2002, at 09:30  AM, Ben Hammersley wrote:
>
> > It's dangerously first draft, and contains at least three mistakes. Help
> > spotting them is remarkably welcome.
>
>
> I must be losing my touch. I read through it and couldn't find any.
>
> One comment though: could we call it mod_cc instead of 
> mod_creativecommons? I'd just like all the URIs to line up nicely.
>
> Hm, should I put it at http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/modules/cc/ or 
> http://web.resource.org/cc/rssmodule/ ?
>
> Great work!

mod_cc it is. Give me a second to walk the dogs, and I'll rename it on 
the RSS-DEV file list. Errata still accepted, of course...

For those of you wondering, the cricket was a draw.



> From ben AT benhammersley.com Tue Aug 13 12:56:50 2002
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After a long conversation with Dave Winer, we've come to an agreement 
for an implementation of Creative Commons metadata and mod_cc, within 
RSS 0.9x. Resolute rdf-haters with stuff to publicdomainatise can now go 
wild.

Hence:

<license url="URL OF DOCUMENT DESCRIBING LICENSE" />

which can be a sub-element of <channel> <item> or <image>. The URL 
should point to a retrieveable URL, whether it be a page on your own 
site declaring your intent, a commonly known license, or one of the 
forthcoming Creative Commons "Commons Deeds". The license refers to the 
object pointed to by the <link> element it is closest to.

For example:

<license url="http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html"; />

or

<license url="http://www.userland.com/termsandconditions.html"; />

or

<license url="http://www.benhammersley.com/dontnickmystuff.html"; />

the last two of which I made up entirely.


I remain,
Ben "Platform Agnostic for a Brighter Tomorrow"


> From burton AT openprivacy.org Wed Aug 14 16:55:34 2002
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Ben Hammersley <ben AT benhammersley.com> writes:

> After a long conversation with Dave Winer, we've come to an agreement for an
> implementation of Creative Commons metadata and mod_cc, within RSS
> 0.9x. Resolute rdf-haters with stuff to publicdomainatise can now go wild.
<snip/>

I guess I am confused.  Since RSS 0.9x specs don't support RSS 1.0 modules do
you intend to release an RSS 0.94 that implements the license element?

I guess you could namespace the elements since everything is XML but this 
seems
to go against most of the 'logic' behind RSS 0.9x.

Kevin

- -- 
Kevin A. Burton ( burton AT apache.org, burton AT openprivacy.org, burton AT peerfear.org )
            Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
       Jabber - burtonator AT jabber.org,  Web - http://www.peerfear.org/
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The future is not set.  There is no fate but what we make for ourselves.
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> From ben AT benhammersley.com Thu Aug 15 03:17:11 2002
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Kevin A. Burton wrote:
> Ben Hammersley <ben AT benhammersley.com> writes:
>
>
>>After a long conversation with Dave Winer, we've come to an agreement 
for an
>>implementation of Creative Commons metadata and mod_cc, within RSS
>>0.9x. Resolute rdf-haters with stuff to publicdomainatise can now go 
wild.
>
> <snip/>
>
>  I guess I am confused.  Since RSS 0.9x specs don't support RSS 1.0 
modules do
>  you intend to release an RSS 0.94 that implements the license element?
>
> I guess you could namespace the elements since everything is XML but 
this seems
> to go against most of the 'logic' behind RSS 0.9x.
>
> Kevin
>

Yes. There is currently a RSS 0.94 in-progress. Discussion has somewhat
stalled as to how it should be formed - some people wanting to add
namespaces, others not, some people pointing out you might as well use
RSS 1.0, others disagreeing - but nevertheless the drafts are out there.
This discussion fizzled out a month or two ago, if you remember, but is
ready for relighting.

The <license> element I suggested yesterday is a proposal for inclusion
within RSS 0.94 should that standard ever a) get off the ground, and b)
retain its namespace virginity. I was not very clear about that. Apologies.

My motivation is entirely a pro-Creative Commons one, rather than a
pro-RSS 0.9x or pro-RSS 1.0. My preference between the madonna and whore
of syndication formats is between me and my angle brackets.

Ben



> From ben AT benhammersley.com Thu Aug 22 14:05:31 2002
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Hi all,
After a serious misunderstanding between ourselves - which was entirely 
my fault - please be advised that Dave Winer has nothing to do with this 
proposal. Although we did discuss it, he did not, in the end, approve 
its release under his name. I thought he had. He hadn't. My bad. I 
therefore retract the proposal, and resubmit it marked entirely my own 
work. It is nothing to do with Dave: I must make that quite clear.

Also, please note that I should have posted this amendment a week ago, 
and that my own tardiness is therefore once again to blame.

The RSS 1.0 module remains unaffected.

Ben


On Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 05:56 , Ben Hammersley wrote:
> After a long conversation with Dave Winer, we've come to an agreement 
> for an implementation of Creative Commons metadata and mod_cc, within 
> RSS 0.9x. Resolute rdf-haters with stuff to publicdomainatise can now 
> go wild.
>
> Hence:
>
> <license url="URL OF DOCUMENT DESCRIBING LICENSE" />
<snip/>


> From me AT aaronsw.com Mon Aug 26 17:01:33 2002
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Ben Adida has commented that noncommercial doesn't seem like a 
requirement, since there's no specific action you can take to complete 
it, like there is with the other requirements. He suggests that it be 
made part of a new class of items.

Does anyone agree? Does anyone disagree? Would this break anything?

Please let me know what you think,
--
Aaron Swartz [http://www.aaronsw.com] I am large, I contain multitudes.


> From ben AT benhammersley.com Tue Aug 27 17:31:16 2002
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I can see a case for a class of "Forbids" - Forbids Commercial Use, 
Forbids Use in Territory X, Forbids Use Before dd-mm-yy

Does that cover it?


On Monday, Aug 26, 2002, at 22:01 Europe/London, Aaron Swartz wrote:

> Ben Adida has commented that noncommercial doesn't seem like a 
> requirement, since there's no specific action you can take to complete 
> it, like there is with the other requirements. He suggests that it be 
> made part of a new class of items.
>
> Does anyone agree? Does anyone disagree? Would this break anything?
>
> Please let me know what you think,
> --
> Aaron Swartz [http://www.aaronsw.com] I am large, I contain multitudes.
>
> _______________________________________________
> cc-metadata mailing list
> metadata AT creativecommons.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-metadata


> From me AT aaronsw.com Wed Aug 28 17:00:13 2002
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On Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 12:40  PM, Ben Hammersley wrote:
> I can see a case for a class of "Forbids" - Forbids Commercial Use, 
> Forbids Use in Territory X, Forbids Use Before dd-mm-yy
>
> Does that cover it?

That sounds about right.
--
Aaron Swartz [http://www.aaronsw.com] I am large, I contain multitudes.


> From me AT aaronsw.com Mon Sep  2 16:25:04 2002
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Subject: Updated Creative Commons Metadata Spec
From: Aaron Swartz <me AT aaronsw.com>
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Hi there,

I released a new version of the CC metadata spec today, version 1.0b2. 
The only difference is that non-commercial has been rename 
CommercialUse and moved into a new class, called prohibitions. 
Prohibitions are not exactly rights (since they're more specific and 
less general things) nor are they requirements (because there's no one 
thing you can do to satisfy them). Examples of prohibitions would be to 
not allow commercial use, illegal use, aiding terrorism, glorifying 
drugs, etc.

This new version of the spec is at: 
http://creativecommons.org/metadata/spec-1.0b2
The latest version is always at: 
http://creativecommons.org/metadata/spec

Thanks for your help,
--
Aaron Swartz [http://www.aaronsw.com] I am large, I contain multitudes.


> From renato AT iprsystems.com Wed Sep  4 03:29:47 2002
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Aaron, have you considered using the ODRL rights language for
the CC Licenses? It has the existing semantics for the
permissions (etc).

The easiest way would be to inset the ODRL expression
as a child of the <cc:License> element.

Of, you could use the ODRL terms as the Resource URIs:
 eg: http://odrl.net/1.1/ODRL-DD-11/#play

What do you think?


Cheers...Renato                       <http://purl.net/renato>
Chief Scientist, IPR Systems Pty Ltd  <http://iprsystems.com>
Open Digital Rights Language (ODRL)   <http://odrl.net>
NEW ADDRESS: 12th Floor, 77 Castlereagh St, Sydney NSW 2000


> From peterjones AT eudoramail.com Wed Sep  4 06:59:04 2002
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Hi,

I am building a network that enables resources, such as songs by unsigned 
musicians, to be discovered and I have a question about how the combination 
of creative commons licences will work.

Basically it would appear that if I search for songs with one type of licence I cannot control 
which other licences will apply to the results of that search. If there was a specific 
"code" defining each possible combination of creative commons licences I could simply 
search for that "code" and I would get back results that corresponded to the exact 
combination I wanted.

I'm not quite sure how the system will work as creative commons has not yet 
launched, but I would be grateful if someone could clarify this point for me.

Many Thanks,

Peter Jones.
Break Through I.T. Ltd.


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account 
at http://www.eudoramail.com

> From riolo AT voicenet.com Sun Sep  8 20:57:47 2002
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Perhaps I misunderstand the purpose of metadata (as defined
in version 1.0b2) for Creative Commons but I need to ask anyway.

Although I don't understand all syntax in the specification,
I think I have a good idea of what it can do.  One thing that
I can't find in the specification is how metadata can indicate
that a work is in the public domain.

For example, if I copy a public domain work from a book, what
should I say in metadata to indicate that the work is in public
domain?  Or, is the metadata designed only for works that have
copyright?

Any enlightenment is welcome.


Joseph Pietro Riolo
<riolo AT voicenet.com>

Public domain notice:  I put all of my expressions in this
post in the public domain.



> From me AT aaronsw.com Sun Sep 15 15:59:47 2002
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Hi Renato,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I've been pretty busy lately.

On Wednesday, September 4, 2002, at 02:13  AM, Renato Iannella wrote:
> Aaron, have you considered using the ODRL rights language for
> the CC Licenses? It has the existing semantics for the
> permissions (etc).

We think the best strategy, rather to take sides in the competitive DRM 
world, is to simply propose our own format for now. We'll continue to 
monitor the progress in DRM standardization and perhaps make some 
changes in the future.

Of course, you can always use RDF Schema and RDF rules to express the 
relationships between our two formats. I'd welcome any comments, 
contributions or suggestions you have on the subject.

Thanks!
--
Aaron Swartz [http://www.aaronsw.com] "Curb your consumption," he said.


> From connolly AT w3.org Tue Sep 17 17:17:19 2002
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Subject: good stuff, some nits
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I took a look at the spec and discussed
some issues with Aaron; the discussion
is logged:
http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2002-09-17#T21-15-32

I particular, I like this device:

| The highlighted information is the part that is
| likely to change from document to document

Section 2 could use a diagram.

The 404 at http://web.resource.org/cc/ ... ouch!

--
Dan Connolly, W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/




> From me AT aaronsw.com Wed Sep 18 21:17:36 2002
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Subject: CC Metadata Spec 1.0b3 Released
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I'm pleased to announce the release of the Creative Commons Metadata 
Spec, version 1.0b3.
http://creativecommons.org/metadata/spec-1.0b3

New in this version:
 - "Applications that support Creative Commons metadata should be 
careful to watch out for new Requirements and Prohibitions that they 
don't support."
 - the new cc:Agent class replaces w:Person
 - added titles and descriptions for everything in the schema
 - renamed Copyleft to ShareAlike
 - added note on Content-Location
 - now uses dc:rights to point to the copyright holder
 - further described the document schema
 - fixed a number of minor bugs
 - recommended that developers use real RDF parsers

Many changes thanks to the great commons from Dan Connolly:
 - the cc:derivativeWork property
 - clarified syntactic structure
 - included sample python code
 - clarified multiple license tags
 - noted that license URI is made up
 - added a paragraph on potential uses

Coming soon:
 - "coming soon" note at http://web.resource.org/cc/
 - graphic of RDF description structure

As usual, the latest version of the draft is at:
http://creativecommons.org/metadata/spec

Thanks for all your help and comments,
--
Aaron Swartz [http://www.aaronsw.com] "Curb your consumption," he said.


> From renato AT iprsystems.com Mon Sep 23 17:14:58 2002
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To: Aaron Swartz <me AT aaronsw.com>
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On Monday, September 16, 2002, at 05:59 AM, Aaron Swartz wrote:

> We think the best strategy, rather to take sides in the competitive 
> DRM world, is to simply propose our own format for now. We'll continue 
> to monitor the progress in DRM standardization and perhaps make some 
> changes in the future.

Aaron, I don' think its a matter of "taking sides". I think CC should
review the options and use something that meets your needs the closest.
I don't think that defining all the semantics again is useful for
the community. Anyway, we wish you the best in your efforts...


Cheers...Renato                        <http://renato.iannella.it>
Chief Scientist, IPR Systems Pty Ltd   <http://iprsystems.com>
Open Digital Rights Language (ODRL)    <http://odrl.net>


> From reagle AT mit.edu Thu Sep 26 12:09:07 2002
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Comments on http://creativecommons.org/metadata/spec-1.0b3

1. In all the browsers I tried, I have to horizontally scoll quite a lot 
just to read the text.
2. I recommend you describe *every* term in this document if you want people 
that are not RDF/Dublin-Core weenies to comprehend it at all. (Please don't 
make the RSS1.0 mistake again.)
3. Why is the <Agent/> element necessary? For example, why not just
<dc:creator>Yo-Yo Dyne<dc:creator> ? (BTW: I think as presently defined, 
dc:creator just takes PCDATA?
4. What does the "bcfgi" in http://creativecommons.org/licenses/bcfgi 
correspond to? Is it some permutation of the variable involved?
5. I see bcfgi is described in the License declarations, so I suppose that 
is how it is bound to the Work. If it is an actual permutation, does this 
statement move about within the the Work element, or is it declared 
somewhere else?

--
Note: I will be traveling and attending meetings Oct 2/3 in California; and 
Oct 5-15 in Australia. I will not be very responsive during this period; I 
will fully respond to any email as soon as possible after my return.

Regards,          http://www.mit.edu/~reagle/
Joseph Reagle     E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65  BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E

* This email is from an independent academic account and is
 not necessarily representative of my affiliations.

> From diane AT commedia.org.uk Tue Oct  1 06:33:33 2002
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From: "Diane Rodgers" <diane AT commedia.org.uk>
To: <metadata AT creativecommons.org>
Subject: query
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Hi,

I have been directed to your site by a colleague as I am currently looking
into the metadata element '15.0 Rights'.

I work for the Community Media Association in England and we are setting up
an online archive of community based media (video, audio, websites) and were
thinking about linking to a rights statement.  Our project is for
non-commercial educational purposes, so I think we would best fit into the
'Noncommercial' category on your main page, and I was wondering if you could
direct me to the link to the most appropriate rights statement.

Also, if we did decide to use this licence/rights statement, do people tend
to link directly to your site, or copy the statement onto their own?  I
think it would probably be most sensible to retain a copy on our own site,
but I just thought I'd check this would be okay.

I hope you can help.

Best Wishes,

Diane A. Rodgers
Research Assistant

****************************************
Community Media Association
15 Paternoster Row, Sheffield, S1 2BX
tel: + 44 (0) 114 279 5219
fax: + 44 (0) 114 279 8976
email: diane AT commedia.org.uk
web: http://www.commedia.org.uk
****************************************




> From me AT aaronsw.com Sun Oct  6 17:59:06 2002
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Thanks for the comments!

On Thursday, September 26, 2002, at 11:08  AM, Joseph Reagle wrote:
> 1. In all the browsers I tried, I have to horizontally scoll quite a 
> lot
> just to read the text.

Yeah, this is because of the PRE. I'll see if I can find a way to fix 
this.

> 2. I recommend you describe *every* term in this document if you want 
> people
> that are not RDF/Dublin-Core weenies to comprehend it at all. (Please 
> don't
> make the RSS1.0 mistake again.)

Sounds reasonable.

> 3. Why is the <Agent/> element necessary? For example, why not just
> <dc:creator>Yo-Yo Dyne<dc:creator> ? (BTW: I think as presently 
> defined,
> dc:creator just takes PCDATA?

Because the creator of the document is not a series of characters, it's 
an agent. This is established RDF practice.

> 4. What does the "bcfgi" in http://creativecommons.org/licenses/bcfgi 
> correspond to? Is it some permutation of the variable involved?

We're still deciding about the license URIs, they'll probably be 
different when we release the site.

> 5. I see bcfgi is described in the License declarations, so I suppose 
> that
> is how it is bound to the Work. If it is an actual permutation, does 
> this
> statement move about within the the Work element, or is it declared
> somewhere else?

I don't follow you.

Each work is attached to one license URI, the license URI is often 
described in the same document and also on the website by connecting it 
to a series of characteristics. Does that answer your question?

Thanks again for the comments, I'll try and address them in the next 
version.
--
Aaron Swartz [http://www.aaronsw.com] "Curb your consumption," he said.


> From ben AT benhammersley.com Sun Oct  6 18:39:35 2002
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Begin forwarded message:

> From: Ben Hammersley <ben AT benhammersley.com>
> Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002  23:38:47 Europe/London
> To: Aaron Swartz <me AT aaronsw.com>
> Subject: Re: Comments on http://creativecommons.org/metadata/spec-1.0b3
>
>
> On Sunday, Oct 6, 2002, at 22:59 Europe/London, Aaron Swartz wrote:
>
> > > 4. What does the "bcfgi" in 
> > > http://creativecommons.org/licenses/bcfgi correspond to? Is it some 
> > > permutation of the variable involved?
> >
> > We're still deciding about the license URIs, they'll probably be 
> > different when we release the site.
> >
> > > 5. I see bcfgi is described in the License declarations, so I 
> > > suppose that
> > > is how it is bound to the Work. If it is an actual permutation, does 
> > > this
> > > statement move about within the the Work element, or is it declared
> > > somewhere else?
> >
> > I don't follow you.
> >
> > Each work is attached to one license URI, the license URI is often 
> > described in the same document and also on the website by connecting 
> > it to a series of characteristics. Does that answer your question?
>
> I think I know what Joseph means: I think he's asking if the bcfgi bit 
> of the example uri signifies anything. ie. does the b mean prohibits 
> this, the c mean allows that and so on, in such a way that a non-RDF 
> parser might be able to make out some complex licenses solely from the 
> URI, and not from visiting the retrievable resource.
>
> In other words, is it an abbreviated version of making the license URI 
> look like
>
> http://creativecommons.org/licenses?allows=copying&prohibits=for-profit
>
> It's an interesting idea, (if that's what Joseph means) - and would 
> give more value to the URI, with little or no extra cost.


> From me AT aaronsw.com Sun Oct  6 18:40:17 2002
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On Sunday, October 6, 2002, at 05:38  PM, Ben Hammersley wrote:
> I think I know what Joseph means: I think he's asking if the bcfgi bit 
> of the example uri signifies anything. ie. does the b mean prohibits 
> this, the c mean allows that and so on, in such a way that a non-RDF 
> parser might be able to make out some complex licenses solely from the 
> URI, and not from visiting the retrievable resource.
>
> In other words, is it an abbreviated version of making the license URI 
> look like
>
> http://creativecommons.org/licenses?allows=copying&prohibits=for-profit
>
> It's an interesting idea, (if that's what Joseph means) - and would 
> give more value to the URI, with little or no extra cost.

Yep, it was intended to. I can't say if the final license URIs will be 
like this, though.
--
Aaron Swartz [http://www.aaronsw.com] "Curb your consumption," he said.



> From chris AT webarchitects.co.uk  Sun Oct 20 07:31:30 2002
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Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 12:31:30 +0100
From: Chris Croome <chris AT webarchitects.co.uk>
To: cc-metadata AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Applying CC license to a large number of things -- one RDF file or 
multiple RDF files?
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Hi

What's the plan for applying a CC license to a large number of
items?

A RDF file per object or one RDF file for multiple objects or
either?

The specific reason I'm asking is because at some point in the
future I want to properly copyleft all the photos on my personal web
site and I'm slightly concerned about the logistics of this (over
12,000 images). I also expect that this issue will apply to many
sites that will want to add CC metadata.

Two options:

1. One large RDF file, this is easy(ish) to create but would
  probably  be 5M or bigger (mod_gzip would help this) -- I have a
  XHTML file that lists all the images and this is 2.7M. What would
  the implications of a RDF file of this size be for application 
  that index it and what would the implications be for bandwidth 
  usage (horrible, no doubt).    

2. Thousands of RDF files, these would be more complicated to
  generate and would require spidering (I guess) and there would 
  have to be some what of indication the URIs of the individual 
  files. 

But perhaps I'm missing the point and the Work rdf:about could point
to directories rather than individual jpeg images?

Chris

--
Chris Croome                               <chris AT webarchitects.co.uk>
web design                             http://www.webarchitects.co.uk/ 
web content management                               http://mkdoc.com/   
everything else                               http://chris.croome.net/  

> From me AT aaronsw.com  Sun Oct 20 13:06:05 2002
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On Sunday, October 20, 2002, at 06:31 AM, Chris Croome wrote:
> What's the plan for applying a CC license to a large number of
> items?

The general plan is to get websites with large numbers of photos (which  
are usually automatically generated) to integrate the RDF snippets into  
their templates. In your case, it would seem like pages like:

http://chris.croome.net/photos/2002/London_anti-war_demo_28_September/

could easily have a corresponding RDF description embedded in the HTML:

<!--
<http://chris.croome.net/photos/2002/London_anti-war_demo_28_September/ 
0023_Anti-war_demonstrators.jpg>
  dc:title "Anti-war demonstrators";
  dc:date "2002-09-28T14:36:54";
  cc:license <.../ShareAlike> .
-->
(except it would be in RDF/XML)

That should be relatively easy to integrate into your HTML template,  
right?

since any large-scale RDF collection system is going to have to spider  
anyway, I don't see this as a really big burden. it also makes it easy  
to integrate browser support (whether through mozilla sidebar things or  
bookmarklets, etc.)

We're hoping to get some major database-driven collections of photos  
and music to adopt this approach, as well as smaller publishers who use  
our licensing system.

Does that make sense?
--
Aaron Swartz [http://www.aaronsw.com] "Curb your consumption," he said.


> From chris AT webarchitects.co.uk  Sun Oct 20 13:23:14 2002
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From: Chris Croome <chris AT webarchitects.co.uk>
To: cc-metadata AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: Applying CC license to a large number of things -- one RDF file 
or multiple RDF files?
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Hi

On Sun 20-Oct-2002 at 12:06:04PM -0500, Aaron Swartz wrote:
> The general plan is to get websites with large numbers of photos
> (which  are usually automatically generated) to integrate the RDF
> snippets into  their templates. 

<snip />

> Does that make sense?

Yes that makes a _lot_ of sense :-)

Chris

--
Chris Croome                               <chris AT webarchitects.co.uk>
web design                             http://www.webarchitects.co.uk/ 
web content management                               http://mkdoc.com/   
everything else                               http://chris.croome.net/  

> From akb AT indymedia.org  Fri Nov 22 17:39:21 2002
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Subject: verifying the license
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Hi,

I just joined this list.  By way of introduction, I volunteer with
Indymedia, a global network of media activists and grassroots
journalists.  We have about 100 media centers in our network running
websites to which producers upload content (mainly news) in over a dozen
languages.  Most of the hundreds of thousands of contributed works are
text but we have tens of thousands of photos and thousands of video and
audio pieces from clips to full length shows.  Most of the content is
under a noncommercial license, some is more restricted, some is less
restricted.  We've been working towards implementing a syndication
framework and look forward to using the CC RDF spec as part of that, so
that other grassroots media outlets, online and offline, can make use of
our content.

> From the draft spec it doesn't appear that there is any provision for
verifying that the license specified is approved by the author.  I
realize that digital certificates and what not is a hard problem but are
there any plans to incorporate this in the future?  Trusting that the
license if genuine seems that it could be an issue if many people
falsely label content.

thanks
alan


> From me AT aaronsw.com  Sat Nov 23 20:36:00 2002
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Hi! It's great to hear indymedia is interested; I've long been a fan.

> From the draft spec it doesn't appear that there is any provision for
> verifying that the license specified is approved by the author.

I'd love to support this if there was a way to do it, but I don't know 
how.

> I realize that digital certificates and what not is a hard problem but 
> are
> there any plans to incorporate this in the future?

Sure, we can get the metadata signed, but how can you tell whether the 
person who signed it is the actual creator of the work or an impostor? 
How many people are actually going to do the work to make sure? I think 
a more effective approach is to simply keep track of your works and 
their licenses on your website.

Still, if you're interested in learning how to sign the RDF, I'd be 
happy to explain.

> Trusting that the license if genuine seems that it could be an issue 
> if many people
> falsely label content.

Yep, I've thought a while about solutions but I haven't come up with 
any good ones. If you've got any, I'd love to hear them.
--
Aaron Swartz [http://www.aaronsw.com]


> From gaijin AT yha.att.ne.jp  Sun Nov 24 18:20:01 2002
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:33:35 +0900
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cc-metadata-request AT lists.ibiblio.org wrote:

> > I realize that digital certificates and what not is a hard problem but 
> > are
> > there any plans to incorporate this in the future?
> >    
>
> Sure, we can get the metadata signed, but how can you tell whether the person who signed it is the actual creator of the work or an impostor? 
If you have your public key on your web site that would seem to provide
a reasonable way of checking no?

> How many people are actually going to do the work to make sure? 
Well wouldn't the thing to do to be to incorporate the checking process
into search engines that support the CC meta-data.

The signed CC meta-data would include a link to the homepage with your
public-key on it. On pressing a "confirm" button supplied by the search
engine, the signature on the meta-data could be checked against the
public key of the author, as well as some other items such as Author name.

There is the issue that someone might copy the entire license insert
their own link to their homepage with a different public key and re-sign
the metadata, but they'd have to link to a homepage that contained all
the appropriate data, so "evil-doers" :-) might be tracked down more easily.

And perhaps more realistically, the search engine itself could keep
track of whether licenses were appearing for the same work under
different public keys, and even whether the rules of the original
licence were being flouted.

Just thinking out loud ....

CHEERS> SAM


> From me AT aaronsw.com  Sun Nov 24 19:08:44 2002
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> If you have your public key on your web site that would seem to 
> provide a reasonable way of checking no?
Sure, but it's no more secure than listing the works and their licenses 
on your website.

> The signed CC meta-data would include a link to the homepage with your
> public-key on it.
Anyone who can create fraudulent metadata can link to a fraudulent 
homepage/public key.

> "evil-doers" :-) might be tracked down more easily.
There are many easy ways to anonymously publish public keys.

> And perhaps more realistically, the search engine itself could keep 
> track
This can be done without public keys.

--
Aaron Swartz [http://www.aaronsw.com]


> From gaijin AT yha.att.ne.jp  Sun Nov 24 19:31:34 2002
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Aaron Swartz wrote:

> > If you have your public key on your web site that would seem to
> > provide a reasonable way of checking no?
>
>
> Sure, but it's no more secure than listing the works and their
> licenses on your website. 


I would have thought that it gives you the advantage that you don't have
to keep all the works and licenses on your website, if you didn't want
to do that. And it means that one piece of data (the public key) can be
used to check all of your licenses, however many you have and however
many websites you put them on.

> > The signed CC meta-data would include a link to the homepage with your
> > public-key on it.
>
>
> Anyone who can create fraudulent metadata can link to a fraudulent
> homepage/public key. 


Sure, as I mentioned in my email already. However it does pick up people
who just try and adjust the license without understanding what the
public key and signature do. Increasing the amount of effort that people
have to make to be fraudulent increases the likelihood that they won't
have the skill or the inclination to do it.

> > "evil-doers" :-) might be tracked down more easily.
>
>
> There are many easy ways to anonymously publish public keys. 


on web sites? I know there are lots of ways to publish public keys
anonymously, but you don't have to support them in an automatic CC
checker. if you have to go to a website for the public key then it's not
anonymous right? I mean I guess if get someone else to put it up on
their website but then you need collaborators. There's no perfect
security, its just about increasing the resource investment that
adversaries have to make.

> > And perhaps more realistically, the search engine itself could keep
> > track
>
>
> This can be done without public keys.
But the advantage of doing it with the public key is that one piece of
data can be used to check arbitrary licenses, rather than storing every
single one. Sounds like an advantage to me.

CHEERS> SAM


--------------080505020907030902090607--


> From pcw2 AT flyzone.com  Wed Dec 11 08:21:54 2002
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From: Peter Wayner <pcw2 AT flyzone.com>
Subject: Metadata
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Hi- I'm planning on releasing a work under the new CC licenses next 
week and that means figuring out the RDF format. My first cut seems 
pretty simple. If anyone wants to check it over or point me toward 
some validating parser, let me know.

Thanks--

Peter Wayner


<rdf:RDF xmlns="http://web.resource.org/cc/";
    xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";
    xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#";>
<Work rdf:about="http://www.wayner.org/books/ffa/ffa.pdf";>
  <dc:title>Free for All: How Linux and the Free Software Movement 
Undercut the High-Tech Titans</dc:title>
    <dc:creator><Agent>
    <dc:title>Peter Wayner</dc:title>
  </Agent></dc:creator>
  <dc:rights><Agent>
    <dc:title>Peter Wayner</dc:title>
  </Agent></dc:rights>
  <dc:format>Text</dc:format>
  <license rdf:resource="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/bcfgi"; />
  <license rdf:resource="http://www.eff.org/IP/Open_licenses/eff_oal.html"; />
</Work>

<License rdf:about="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/bcfgi";>
  <permits rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/Reproduction"; />
  <permits rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/Distribution"; />
  <requires rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/Notice"; />
  <requires rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/Attribution"; />
  <prohibits rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/CommercialUse"; />
  <prohibits rdf:resource="http://web.resource.org/cc/DerivativeWorks"; />
</License>
</rdf:RDF>