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  • From: "Rolf" <rolf.furuli AT sf-nett.no>
  • To: "B-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] verb form
  • Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2013 10:06:07 +0200

Dear Nir,

You should have read my dissertation before you tell the list-members what I
mean and what I have done.

> in order to show that BH does not consider time as verb form parameter, rolf
> defines time in a very narrow and non-compromising sense, imposed by some
> theories. this, of course, is the wrong direction: in an empirical science,
> it
> is fact which determines theory. BH indeed uses time in more
> ways than he envisages.

> of course, in spite of rolf's opinion, almost everybody
> agrees that BH uses time as an important determinant of
> the verb form. however, not in the same way english does, for example. or
> chinese. these diferences should be made precise.

I never "define time," but I define the concept "tense." Here I follow
Comrie's definition, namely, that tense "is grammaticalized location in
time." For example, this mens that if a language has tenses, we can see a
uniform use of some verb forms: Some forms are uniformely used with past
reference, and other forms are used with future reference.
When we find that all verb forms in a particular language can have past,
present and future reference, that language does not have tenses. I have
already mentioned that I have found 997 WAYYIQTOLs with non-past reference
and 956 QATALs with future reference. The only way to nullify my conclusion
that these examples show that Hebrew does not have tenses, is to show that
the mentioned WAYYIQTOLs and QATALs occur in strange contexts. But that is
not true; the examples occur both in poetic and prose texts.

I mentioned in my post to Kimmo that the best example of a uniform use of
verb forms of which i know, is Greek imperfect. If anyone can give me an
example of a non-past use of Greek imperfect, please do that off-list.

Here I have two important questions for you: Is there a language in the world
where the semantic meaning of verb tenses is different in poetic and prose
texts? What is your evidence that the semantic meaning of Hebrew verbs are
different in poetic and prose texts?


> aspect, too, is divided under most theories into viewpoint aspect and
> situation aspect. for some reason, in the BH context the
> perfect(ive)/imperfect(ive) division is called by many "aspect", ignoring
> the
> other half, i.e. the distinction between (in first approximation, see
> wendler,
> smith etc) state and event.
>
> so, what rolf calls "aspect" is really only "half aspect".
> where is the other half?

Your statement above leads to confusion. You refer to Carlota Smith. She uses
the terminology "viewpoint aspect" for perfectivity and imperfectivity, and
what she calls "neutral viewpoints." She uses "situation aspects" with
reference to the Vendlerian concepts states, activities, achievements,
accomplishments, and semelfactives. In my dissertation I use all the
Vendlerian concepts, but I subsume them under the name "procedural traits"
and not "situation aspect." The important thing is not the term used, but
that each term is clearly defined. So I do not use "half aspect."

I downloaded your manuscript. The basic weakness in my view is that you do
not have clear definitions of your terms. For example, you use the term
"gnomic" in a much wider sense than usual. Therefore, your interpretations
including "gnomic" cannot be tested. A few comments to your
"all-propositions" in a) and b).

> a) wayiqtols and weqatals describe events and not states.
> unless the reason for the waw-prefix is SYNTACTIC (i.e. there was no
> alternative).

Your words "there was no alternative" are very interesting, because they can
be applied to the WAYYIQTOLs used of events in narrative texts as well. In
a narrative text, the reference is past, and one event follows the other. So
there is no alternative to the use of the WAW-prefix (expressed as WAY
because of ohonological rules); thus, the WAY-prefix is syntactically
conditioned. This means that the verb form in each case is YIQTOL, but
because of syntactical requirements, the YIQTOL has a WAY-prefix.

>
> b) all wayiqtols and weqatals have the value "relative future",
> compared with their event predecessor verb form. with the same caveat.

All-propositions are notoriously dangerous. What is "relative future"? In
Table 6.2 in my dissertation there are 26 examples where the time of the
WAYYIQTOL is similar with the time before (there are more examples as well).

Examples:

1 Samuel 1:17 "answered and said."
2 Kings 18:28 "stood and called," "spoke and said."
1 chronicles 29:22 "ate and drank."

Some examples OF WAQATAL with the same time reference:

Jeremiah 50: 22 "will stumble" (WAQATAL) and "will fall" (WEQATAL); "will
kindle a fire" (WEQATAL) "will consume" (WEQATAL.
Jeremiah 51:8 "will fall (QATAL) and "will be broken" (WEQATAL)
Jeremiah 51:44 "will punish (WEQATAL) and "will spew out" (WEQATAL)


Why not apply your theories to Jeremiah, chapters 50 and 51. In 50, there
are 32 QATALs with future reference. There are also 17 WEQATALs, 50 YIQTOLs
and 2 WAYYIQTOLs with future reference. In 51, there are 27 QATALs with
future reference. There are also 38 WEQATALS, 32 YIQTOLs, 2 WEYIQTOLS, and 4
WAYYIQYOLs with future reference. How shall we explain all these different
forms with future reference? Does any of them represent tense?


Best regards,



Rolf Furuli
Stavern
Norway




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