Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg <waldeinburg AT yahoo.com>]

Hi Karl,

I skipped a lot of aspects of the discussion that led to the initial 
question, so my point was probably not clear:
The tin/lead discussion is not only concerning the material of אֲנךְ, but 
also wether it is a tool at all. So my point is: I find it less plausible 
that a plumb line would be named after tin, because I think lead would be 
cheaper and intuitively better for the job (see below). So if annaku is "tin" 
it weakens the possibility that אֲנךְ is a plumb line. And even if it is 
true, we do not seem to have evidence that אֲנךְ was interpreted as "plumb 
line" before the 10th century.

Admittedly, I'm not a craftsman, but I don't think the density of lead is 
something that is only relevant for "modern usage". You don't need a physics 
concepts as "density" to know that "lead is heavy" (in Danish we have a 
common expression, "blytung", i.e. "heavy as lead"). And I believe it is 
quite intuitive that heavier equals more stable (depending on the situation, 
of course). The job of the weight is not only to hold the line straight but 
also as  unwavering and unaffected by the wind (in short, vertical) as 
possible.


Regards,
Daniel




>________________________________
> From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
>To: Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg <waldeinburg AT yahoo.com> 
>Cc: Yigal Levin <Yigal.Levin AT biu.ac.il>; "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" 
><b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org> 
>Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 12:17 AM
>Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] When did )NK in Amos 7:7f become interpreted as 
>"plumb line"?
> 
>
>Daniel:
>
>
>The question here, what was the tool used for?
>
>
>The advantage of lead, in modern usage, is its density, but any weight can 
>be used and the tool is stil functional. It doesn’t matter what the tool’s 
>weight is made of, if it holds the line straight, it does its job. If it is 
>true as you say that the original weight was made of tin, hence its name in 
>Akkadian, it is best to translate it not by the name “tin” rather as “ 
>plumb-line” in English, even though “plumb” refers to lead.
>
>
>It is function that we look for, not form.
>
>
>Karl W. Randolph.
>
>
>On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 6:20 AM, Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg 
><waldeinburg AT yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Hi Yigal,
>>
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>Of course tin or a wooden brick or whatever could have been used for such a 
>>tool, but if the Akkadian word gave name to the tool, I think it must mean 
>>"lead" (tin is normally בְדִיל and lead עֹפֶרֶת, so maybe אֲנָךְ was used 
>>only as a technical term, if we suppose it is a tool). Or to put it another 
>>way: if annaku means "tin" I don't think it would give name to this tool, 
>>unless it through "usage mistakes" came to mean "lead" when entering Hebrew:
>>1. Lead is special because it has a high density (tin is similar to iron in 
>>this regard). You want as much inertia as possible for this tool – if it is 
>>not stable it does not work properly.
>>2. According to Landsberger lead is way cheaper than tin.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>From George.Athas AT moore.edu.au  Tue Mar 27 21:48:55 2012
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From: George Athas <George.Athas AT moore.edu.au>
To: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] Ecc 9:12
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I'd argue that stock markets were not within the original thought processes 
of Qoheleth, so the text cannot be talking about a stock market crash. But 
then, I am a pedant, and would still see this as a valid modern-day 
appropriation of Qoheleth's point. :P

Perhaps he was thinking about a Stoic market crash?


GEORGE ATHAS
Director of Postgraduate Studies,
Moore Theological College (moore.edu.au)
Sydney, Australia


From: Yigal Levin <Yigal.Levin AT biu.ac.il<mailto:Yigal.Levin AT biu.ac.il>>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:28:25 +0200
To: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org<mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ecc 9:12

Hi Pere,

Considering the fact that the verse goes on to compare man's fate to that of
fish in a net and birds in a trap, and then repeats that a man can never
know when bad things will happen suddenly, I would say that the first part
obviously refers to man's not knowing when something bad will happen. But
you are correct in that the verse does not specifically mention death. It
could refer to a sudden crash in the stock market...:-)


Yigal Levin

-----Original Message-----
From: 
b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org<mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org>
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Pere Porta
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 7:56 AM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org<mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ecc 9:12

Dear b-hebrew listers,

Ecc 9:12 -- Literally the Hebrew says: "Moreover, man does not know his
time..........".
I remark that the first seven words in Ecc 9:12 are often understood  -as
shown in several translations-  as "the humans do not know when they will
die".

Do you feel this is a misunderstanding of the text?
What does the Hebrew text really mean?

--
Pere Porta
(Barcelona, Catalonia, Northeastern Spain)
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