Biblical Hebrew Forum

[K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>]

Ratson:

On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 5:30 PM, Ratson Naharadama 
<yahoo-arch AT heplist.com>wrote:

> Karl Randolph wrote:
> > Both [LXX & Hexapla] too late, by centuries.
>
> > If my reading of the text is correct,
> > then the pronunciation was changing
> > already at the time of Cyrus the Great.
>
> How about the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III? This is dated to somewhere
> around 825 BCE, and even ignoring the date, it is still pre-exilic. Yehu
> (Jehu) is mentioned where it writes:
> Yaúa mar Huumrii
> Meaning "Yehu son of Omri." Omri (עמרי) is written in the patter CVCCV (or
> CVCCVC if you were to count the yud).
>

Is that the only one you have? Yehuwa is consistent with a CV pattern, but
Omri could have been misheard, as Hu:(u:Me:Ri:Ie (colons indicate syllable
breaks, “e” unstressed shewas), therefore this example is inconclusive. We
need more.

>
> Karl wrote in reference to nun-assimilation:
> > Irrelevant.
>
> ???
> What causes it to become irrelevant?
>
> I should have been clearer, namely the reference was to cognate languages.

As far as the nun-assimilation, there can be reasons other than CVC to
explain that, so I didn’t comment on it.

>
> Karl wrote:
> > At the very least, many of the words
> > [...] had a CV:CV structure during Biblical times.
>
> So, at least I know you accept the existence of (temporally) long vowels.
>

Misunderstood. Whether or not there were long vowels, we don’t have records
of that for Biblical Hebrew. What I intended is to say that the syllable
was CV, to be followed by the next syllable as CV.

>
> Karl wrote:
> > [...] like in modern Chinese.
>
> And once upon a time, what would become Chinese had CVC patterns. As the
> syllable-final consonants weakened (which simultaneously involved the
> preceding vowel to gain tone qualities), they eventually dropped out
> leaving a tonal system in the wake. But then, the history of Chinese
> doesn't really help out a whole lot with Semitic languages in this area.


Where do you get that history of Chinese? Is it even relevant to the
discussion? All I mentioned is the present status of the language, which
has some consonants able to close CVC syllables, other consonants always in
the pattern of CV syllables. The only reason I brought it up is as an
example of such a pattern, with admitting the possibility that Biblical
Hebrew may have had such a pattern, but that today we don’t know. We have
no proof for any of these possibilities.

>
>
> Karl wrote:
> > But a major evidence for CV language
> > is poetry, where there is a beat
> > to reading all letters as consonants
> > followed by vowels.
>
> One problem here is poetry can take many different rhythms. By reading any
> languages as CV,  all you are doing is altering the language to fit the
> *most* simple of poetic rhythms. You can usually do that to any language
> and discover a rhythm.
>

The question is, can it be done consistently? Verse after verse after
verse? Whole chapters with maybe one or two exceptions? If yes, then it is
evidence, not proof. If no, then the hypothesis fails.

In trying out the idea on known poetry, it can be done consistently, verse
after verse after verse, whole chapters with maybe one or two exceptions.
Is it proof? No. But it keeps the question alive.

>
> Another problem is that syllables can be read so that it can take a
> portion of a single beat while another can be read to take up several
> beats. You can see this in both Jewish and Arabic usage (as well as in
> English and many other cultures). Then, with Samaritan poetry, a syllable
> can even be repeated multiple times when read, yet only written once. The
> rhythm can also change back and forth in poetry. There are so many unknowns
> introduced by poetry that examples are often excluded when studying a
> language.
>
> I wonder about that in the spelling in Biblical Hebrew poetry, were some
of the matres lexionis included to stretch a syllable over two beats? It
seems to fit. I most certainly don’t have all the answers, I am just
raising the questions.

The modern practice in Biblical Hebrew poetry is because the modern
pronunciation has no beat, no rhythm.

>
>
> --
> Ratson Naharädama
> Denver, Colorado
>

Karl W. Randolph.