Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Nir cohen - Prof. Mat." <nir AT ccet.ufrn.br>]

george, karl, 

i must admit your (george) question made me read qohelet in a critical way for
the first time, so i will not delve into conjectures. as karl observed, the
fatalist view was based on the initial verses in Q9. 

Q was apparently not writing the book for the sinner worried about god's
punishment, but for the perplex who wants to know the principles for a good
life. so, godly justice might not be the main theme. and, according to Q,
a hopeless pursuit, too. in some places he seems to be saying "do what you
have to do and let the chips fall where they do."

his call for simplicity and righteousness is motivated by a "principle of
minimum reaction", both human and godly. perhaps this is subtly different than
reward and punishment, in that if you made a mistake it does not keep haunting
you, as it does in our "jewish-christian sin-related thinking",
as it is called by some.

Q's belief in godly justice is not factual, it is based on the belief in 
a balance in the world (chapter 3): our days are days of injustice, but
justice will show up at some point. this is similar to our usual 
reaction to, say, a close friend's death (he/she is with god). 
not necessarily convincing but comforting.

not much more i can say beyond this.

nir cohen

----

PS on the word RACAH in the context of Q9:7:

i wonder what is the BH position on the difference between RACAH OTO, RICAH
OTO and RACAH BO. modern hebrew uses the more vulgar RACA OTO and the somewhat
literary RACA BO almost synonymously, and RICA OTO means 
"appease", or figuratively, RICAH ET (ONShO: complete time in prison. but i
suspect that RACAH ET (=want) is not common BH, hence an odd occurrence in
Q9:7. is this so? if so, maybe it is RICAH in Q9:7?

n.c. over
-----

PPS to me, the metaphoric description of the end of life in Q12:1-6 is as good
as a dali painting. what the brush misses, the mind completes.

n.c. over
----

PPPS i find this translation (mekhon mamre) a bit odd (qohelet 10:11):

If the serpent bite before it is charmed, then the charmer hath no advantage.

of course not, he is dead! the following looks more natural to me:

(MASHAL:) when the snake bites, it does not hiss 

(NIMSHAL:) he who does much talking does not get the upper hand.

the mashal is analogous to the famous "a barking dog does not bite".

n.c. over and out

--------------------------------------
-------------------------------------

>>> I think I'd soften the 'fatalism' a little to perhaps 'determinism' or
'predestination'. 
That gives less of a sense of necessary doom.

I agree with you, Nir, that this passage is strongly deterministic. However, 
the 
'approve' seems to go against the flow here. Are you saying that Qohelet 
believes 
God approves of all deeds? If so, then the warnings about judgement do not
seem to 
make much sense.


GEORGE ATHAS
Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
www.moore.edu.au

------------------------------

>>> You really need to go back to at least verse 4 if not the beginning of the
chapter to get the context of the clause.


> Almost all English versions go for something like '…for God has already
> accepted your works'. This understands the verb רצה as meaning 'to accept',
> or 'to approve'. However, this seems to go against the context in my
> opinion. Qohelet is known for producing tensions in his discussion, but they
> are usually contextual and can be upheld. This one seems to defy that
> principle.
>

I read this as fatalism, that nothing really matters. Even God is not
judgmental, he is already satisfied with anything that you do. It doesn’t
matter what you do, you’ll die no matter if you are wise or foolish, good or
bad, or whatever. So grab what little pleasures you find in life to relieve
the trouble and futility of life.

Karl W. Randolph.