Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Rolf Furuli <furuli AT online.no>]

Dear Carl,

In my view, the hyperbolic claim regarding Jeremiah 38:9 is an ad hoc 
explanation. The reason for it is the view that the WAYYIQTOL  form 
is perfective, and a perfective verb should not have an egressive 
force or refer to the future. Therefore, when the map does not fit 
the terrain, the terrain is wrong.  A WEQATAL would be no problem, as 
Randall shows.

A interesting example  of such ad hoc explanations, is the discussion 
between the two  Semitists, (the Norwegian) Harris Birkeland and F. 
R. Blake in the 1950s. The issue was 130 WAYYIQTOLs that different 
scholars claimed had present or future reference.  Both scholars 
believed that WAYYIQTOL is perfective or represents past tense. After 
both had carefully considered the WAYYIQTOLs, both came to the same 
conclusion: These 130 WAYYIQTOLs could not be used as evidence that 
the form was not perfective or had past tense. However, the reasons 
for their conclusion were diametrically opposed. Birkeland use a kind 
of linguistic gymnastics, and found that none of the WAYYIQTOLs. save 
one or two,  had present or future reference. Blake concluded that 
most of the WAYYIQTOLs did have present or future reference. But he 
claimed that they were wrongly pointed and were WEYIQTOLs.  When the 
conclusions of a study are drawn before the study starts, the study 
is biased, and can hardly be called scientific at all.

I see no hyperbole at all in Numbers 17:27. According to Chapter 16, 
the people were not obedient, and 14,700 died. The basis for the 
words of the people in 17:27 is that if God is so demanding, so 
bloodthirsty, that even if they came close to the tabernacle, they 
would die (17:28), then we all will die is the feelings. I translate 
17:27-28 in the following way:

27. And the sons of Israel said to Moses: "Look! We will (certainly) 
die (QATAL); we will (certainly) perish (QATAL) ; all of us will 
(certainly )perish (QATAL). 28 Anyone approaching, coming near to the 
dwelling (tabernacle) of YHWH, shall die (YIQTOL). Must we (really) 
end up expiring (QATAL+infinitive)?

I have added "certainly" in parentheses. The reason is that when the 
verb is not clause initial in a clause with future reference, QATAL 
is not the default form used. Therefore, when it is used, it may or 
may not add some emphasis.  There is nothing strange with the clauses 
of vv. 27 and 28; and there is not problematic that we see four 
QATALs  and one YIQTOL with future reference.

I have a list of 997 WAYYIQTOLs with non-past reference, 965 QATALs 
with future reference, 2,505 QATALs with present reference, 50 
WEYIQTOLs with past reference, and 1,027 YIQTOLs with past reference.


Best regards,

Rolf Furuli



> Rolf:
>
> I think that student has a point. I disagree with it, based on my 
> understanding of Biblical Hebrew language, but to reject it as 
> "preconceived conclusions" does not do him justice.
>
> An example of hyperbole is found in Numbers 17:27 (verse 12 in 
> English) where Israel said "We are expiring, we are lost, all of us 
> are lost!" when that was not true. So we cannot reject the 
> possibility of hyperbole out of hand.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 1:58 AM, Rolf Furuli 
> <<mailto:furuli AT online.no>furuli AT online.no> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Randall,
>
> This is an excellent example of how the text is read in the light of 
> preconceived conclusions., instead of drawing one's conclusions on 
> the text taken at face value.  When the text dose not fit one's 
> conclusions, the text is explained away. But there are many more 
> similar examples.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rolf Furuli

Exaggeration.
> From nir AT ccet.ufrn.br  Fri Feb 11 14:04:38 2011
Return-Path: <nir AT ccet.ufrn.br>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id 618084C130; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:04:38 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on malecky
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled
        version=3.3.1
Received: from venus.ccet.ufrn.br (venus.ccet.ufrn.br [200.19.174.45])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87BC54C0D9
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:04:37 -0500 
(EST)
Received: from ccet.ufrn.br (localhost [127.0.0.1])
        by venus.ccet.ufrn.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE0D215FC4D4
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:50:36 -0300 
(BRT)
From: "Nir cohen - Prof. Mat." <nir AT ccet.ufrn.br>
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:50:36 -0300
Message-Id: <20110211173903.M55665 AT ccet.ufrn.br>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1297362154.4742.b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
References: <mailman.0.1297362154.4742.b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
X-Mailer: OpenWebMail 2.53 
X-OriginatingIP: 10.9.0.48 (nir)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset=utf-8
Subject: [b-hebrew] gen 16:12
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13
Precedence: list
List-Id: Biblical Hebrew Forum <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 19:04:38 -0000

a curiousity: "yad kol bo", accidentally or not, permutes the same 
6 letters of "yado bakol". 

nir cohen


> > > Hi everybody.

I would like to start a discussion about Gen16:12, particularly the part which
is traditionally translated "His hand will be against everyone, and everyone's
hand will be against him." - יָדֹ֣ו בַכֹּ֔ל וְיַ֥ד 
כֹּ֖ל

There is a view held by some that this portion could just as easily been
regarded as striking one's hand against another in trade (cf. Prov 22:26a).
This view draws support from the generally positive blessing to which Hagar
reacts extremely positively. In this view, the portion could just as well be
translated "He will trade with everybody, and everybody with him." (cf.
http://arabchurch.wordpress.com/additional-readings/additional-readings-2/)

I tried digging into as much material as I could lay hands on (pardon the
pun), but most commentators either do not discuss the Hebrew, or cursorily
show the traditional interpretation.

Is this alternative interpretation correct? Care to discuss? (Note: I am
asking because I am involved in translation work for an upcoming scripture
project.)

B Chan