Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon AT historian.net>]

From: "Doug Belot" <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 3:37 AM
To: "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon AT historian.net>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Well Wishing

> Hi Jack , I guess I am wondering why Jesus and the apostles did not make 
> it clearer , or perhaps they thought they had , and we were expected to do 
> only as they did and replace this name with the expression ,  "Lord" .

If you mean the substitution, when reading Tanakh, of the tetragrammaton 
with "adonai" (Lord), Jesus and his disciples had nothing to do with it. 
The convention was centuries old.

> Can you give me any idea why they did not use it , even tho they quoted 
> from from it , Joel 2:32 and Heb 1:8-10 .

Joel, one of the Twelve Minor Prophets, is hard to date and I am sure there 
will be a number of opinions on this list.  It may be as early as the 9th 
century BCE or during the time of Jeremiah.  The convention for not voicing 
the name of God may not have existed at that time.    Also, "calling on the 
name" of someone, even a king, meant, in some contexts, calling on the 
authority. Hebrews is a Christian work by an unknown author sometime in the 
latter half of the first century.  Written by a Pauline, it is a 
Christological work and cannot be used as a proof text for a Jewish 
convention
> Did you say that Jesus was not God ?? , or have I missunderstood.

I don't like to disavow or counter issues that may be articles of faith for 
some but we are discussing (to stay on topic...or close to it) a principle 
of the Hebrew Scriptures and basic Jewish thought.  I said that if anyone in 
the early 1st century told the historical Jewish Jesus that he WAS God, I am 
certain Jesus would have been horrified.

I am afraid we have wandered away from the purpose of the list which is 
based on the grammar, syntax and orthography of Biblical Hebrew, so before 
we are chastised I will continue this with you off-list unless there is 
something in the Hebrew text that is driving your inquiries.

Jack Kilmon
San Antonio, TX


> doug
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon AT historian.net>
> To: "Doug Belot" <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Well Wishing
>
>
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > From: "Doug Belot" <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 12:02 AM
> > To: "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon AT historian.net>
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Well Wishing
> >
> > > Thanks Jack, very well written letter and is a big help , so when we see
> > > the term YHWH , it is a term that was fabricated so time after Jesus , 
> > > not
> > > before .
> >
> > No, YHWH was used hundreds of years before the time of Jesus.  Perhaps 
> > you
> > are thinking about the word "Jehovah."
> >
> > > With Joel 2:32 and it use as a quote for calling the name of the Lord ,
> > > and as you say Gen 4:26 was the earliest suggestion of such name being
> > > called on , then we have Ps 54:1 "Save me O God by your name " , would
> > > these not all be the same name , and how does this work as Act 4:12 says
> > > there is only one name to call on to be saved.
> >
> > The admonition against voicing the ShemHaMeforash (Name of God) was a 
> > second
> > temple period
> > custom and not during pre-exilic times.  Since all extant texts of the
> > Tanakh are from 2nd temple (Dead Sea Scrolls) time and most midieval, the
> > tetragrammaton is normally written in paleoHebrew or some other scribal
> > convention and voiced when reading aloud as "adonai" (Lord).  The 
> > continued
> > use of this convention by non-Jews is a matter of respect.
> > Let's work back chronologically":
> >
> > Many non-Jews say "YAHveh" but it must be kept in mind that there was no 
> > VAV
> > in Biblical Hebrew so it was not HVH (until the middle ages), it was HWH
> > ("to be") and as for yhwh, the YOD is added in front to show the perfect
> > state.  It could have been the qal originally and sometime shifted to the
> > hiph'il in folk etymology.  But these are reasonable differences based on
> > the word constructions.
> >
> > The convention for using theophorics as parts of names changed in the 
> > Second
> > Temple Period.
> > In pre-exilic times, it was common practice to include
> > YHWH as part of names such as "YHWH is my Salvation" which was the name
> > YESHAYAHU (Isaiah).  The pre-exilic Hebrew name that we know as "Joshua" 
> > was
> > Yehoshua which means "YHWH is my help."  The inclusion of the name of God 
> > in
> > a personal name was common practice in the ancient middle east and is 
> > called
> > the "Theophoric" noticeable in names like Michael (EL) Balshazar (Baal) 
> > and
> > Yahosef (Joseph).  In the second temple period it became blasphemy
> > for a mortal to pronounce the name of God (Shem haMeforash), even
> > accidentally, hence the theophoric was either removed or shortened.
> > Mattityahu (Matthew) became Mattaya and Yehoshua became Y'shua (Yeshua).
> > Yahosef became Yosef,
> >
> > The earliest use of
> > the terminal theophoric that comes to my mind as I type is the Pithos A 
> > from
> > Kudillet Ajrud of "Egeliah" which means "Bull calf of YAH/YHWH."  (I can
> > send you a graphic privately). There appears to have been some form of
> > orthographic rule for the use of theophorics in NW Semitic names where 
> > the
> > leading theophoric is "Yeho" as in Yehoichim, Yehosaphat, Yehoshua, etc 
> > and
> > the terminal theophoric as YAH or YAHU as in Yeshayahu (Isaiah), 
> > Yirimyahu
> > (Jeremiah), etc.  In the very earliest use of theophorics they may have 
> > been
> > attached to royal names.  Perhaps a leading or terminal theophoric was
> > exclusive to class...that's just a conjecture.  This is an area (the use 
> > of
> > theophorics in Semitic naming practices) that I have been meaning to
> > research and document but I am sure its been done before and perhaps 
> > there
> > is a literature base on it..
> >
> > I get the impression there is some underlying point you are trying to 
> > make
> > regarding the tetragrammaton or the Shem HaMeforash and I am missing it.
> > Maybe if you tell me exactly what you are trying to demonstrate.
> >
> > Jack Kilmon
> > San Antonio, TX
> >
> > > doug belot
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon AT historian.net>
> > > To: "Doug Belot" <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
> > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 2:49 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Well Wishing
> > >
> > >
> > > > No, Doug.  No one in the 1st century would have known about a Roman
> > > > letter
> > > > transliteration of the tetragrammaton.  There would be no Latin
> > > > translation
> > > > of the Tanakh until Jerome  in the 4/5th centuries.  The word used for
> > > > Jesus
> > > > by his followers would have been the Aramaic MARAN which was an address
> > > > for
> > > > any "master" from a husband to a teacher.  The tetragrammaton would 
> > > > never
> > > > had been used in that manner...never. It represented the name of God.
> > > > Furthermore, even though later Christians would contrive the 
> > > > trinitarian
> > > > formula, I am convinced that had anyone approached that Galilean and 
> > > > told
> > > > him that he WAS God, Jesus would have punched them in the nose.
> > > >
> > > > The history of the tetragrammaton, yod-heh-waw-heh goes back to the 
> > > > very
> > > > composition of the Torah and much earlier.
> > > >
> > > > The tetragrammaton itself may have developed from El and Yahweh merged 
> > > > as
> > > > an
> > > > hypocoristicon, the combination of the thunder god Yah and the bull god
> > > > EL.
> > > > The Qal of hwh taken from a TITLE phrase as an hypocoristicon of EL, 
> > > > ala
> > > > Albright and Cross? A title like "El causes ****to come into being". 
> > > > HYH
> > > > is
> > > > Hebrew but the root being discussed HWH is NOT...it is Aramaic. A 
> > > > Hiph'il
> > > > form of HYH is, as far as I know, non-attested. There is an Hafel of 
> > > > HWH
> > > > in
> > > > Daniel 5:12 yod-heh-het-waw-heh.
> > > >
> > > > This may be more than you have asked but the inscription on one of the
> > > > Ugaritic tablets (The Epic of Ba'al)  is (El talking to his adopted son
> > > > YAW,
> > > > the god of the primordial chaos) "Your name is beloved of EL, YAM"..he
> > > > changes the name from YAW to YAM.  YAHU, YAM and YAW are all mentioned 
> > > > in
> > > > Eblaite 2250 BCE.  I am of the opinion that the trajectory was from the
> > > > Negev desert to Canaan where YAH was used.  This includes the region of
> > > > the
> > > > Midianites which is preserved in the Moses story.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There are some who think Yahweh (YHWH) could have been a local god of 
> > > > the
> > > > Midianites or Northern Arabia. There are many Old Negev inscriptions
> > > > found
> > > > at Har Karkom  and Nahal Avidat dating from the late bronze age.  Some
> > > > refer
> > > > to EL and others to YAH, YAHU and YAHH and IMO one inscription comes 
> > > > from
> > > > a
> > > > time (around 1600 BCE) when EL and YAH were being merged.  It is 
> > > > written
> > > > in
> > > > Old
> > > > Negev and in Hebrew it is l)( lh )l yh (dt "For him in the time of 
> > > > evil,
> > > > El
> > > > Yah.
> > > >
> > > > Were the Shasu among the Habiru?  Military inscriptions under Seti I
> > > > describe the Habiru and Shasu as the same?   YHWH was not "YHWH of the
> > > > Jews"
> > > > in the Bronze Age.  He was known among the Shasu and Canaanites
> > > > (Edomites,
> > > > Midianites) along with his consort/wife Asherah.  The earliest mention 
> > > > of
> > > > the name Yahweh (t3 s3sw yhw)  is Edomite in the last half of the 15th
> > > > century BCE and as mentioned is also found from the reign of Amenhotep
> > > > III
> > > > at the Temple of Amun in the Sudan.  The evidence seems to indicate 
> > > > that
> > > > remains of the Hyksos and Shasu tribes intering the Highlands of Canaan
> > > > from
> > > > Trans-Jordan brought Yahweh with them to be assimilated among nomadic
> > > > Israelites.  The historical kernel could have been a "Moses-like" 
> > > > figure
> > > > among them serving as the kernel of the Exodus story which I believe 
> > > > was
> > > > embellished under Josiah to unite tribes to observe Passover at the
> > > > Temple
> > > > in Jerusalem.
> > > >
> > > > Back to 1386 BC., as mentioned above, In the temple of Amon in Soleb
> > > > (Nubia)
> > > > there is a topographical list from the time of Amenhotep III (1408-1372
> > > > B.C.). In column IV.A2 is written t3 ssw yhw3 which means"Yahweh of the
> > > > land
> > > > of the Shasu" A god's name was often given to a geographical area where
> > > > that
> > > > god was worshipped.
> > > >
> > > > This may be the long way around putting the use of the tetragrammaton 
> > > > in
> > > > context to answer your question.  I may get my hand slapped but Joel 
> > > > 2:32
> > > > is
> > > > וְהָיָה כֹּל אֲשֶׁר־יִקְרָא בְּשֵׁם יְהוָה  and the word "Lord" is not
> > > > used.
> > > > It is just used in translation for  יְהוָה
> > > > During His lifetime, Jesus was never addressed as "Lord" as a word to
> > > > represent God.  He was addressed as MARI, "my lord"  or RABBA as a 
> > > > title
> > > > for
> > > > a respected teacher.  I am also not too keen on the use of the English
> > > > peerage titles "lord" or "king" or "prince" for a word that in a 1st
> > > > century
> > > > Jewish culture, meant "master."
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Jack
> > > >
> > > > Jack Kilmon
> > > > San Antonio, TX
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------
> > > > From: "Doug Belot" <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 12:50 AM
> > > > To: "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon AT historian.net>
> > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Well Wishing
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks for that Jack , so the Hebrew people that followed Jesus would
> > > > > have
> > > > > known about the Roman letters YHWH , but still chose to put LORd , say
> > > > > in
> > > > > Rom 10:13 , which was a quote from Joel 2:32 , I am trying to nail 
> > > > > down
> > > > > why the NT writers all seemed to agree on the LORD bit as Jesus , and
> > > > > why
> > > > > YHWH resurfaced later as a name aside from Jesus .
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you hae any ideas on this ?
> > > > >
> > > > > doug belot
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > > From: "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon AT historian.net>
> > > > > To: "Doug Belot" <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>; "ISAAC FRIED"
> > > > > <if AT math.bu.edu>;
> > > > > <dwashbur AT nyx.net>
> > > > > Cc: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 2:59 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Well Wishing
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > After the exile the Aramaic Square Script was adopted for Hebrew.
> > > > > > Arabic
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > a younger script that developed around the 2nd century BCE from a
> > > > > > cursive
> > > > > > Nabataan Aramaic script.  I guess it might be more accurate to say 
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > Hebrew script and Arabic script are an "Aramaic type script."  YHWH
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > represent English words but is the English (Roman) transliteration of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > Hebrew letters yod-heh-waw-heh known as the tetragrammaton and is not
> > > > > > pronounced (even if the pronunciation was known) but substituted
> > > > > > mentally
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > vocally if read aloud with "adonai" (Lord).  They appeared before the
> > > > > > LXX
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > Hebrew but often written in the pre-exilic paleo-Hebrew script to 
> > > > > > make
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > stand out from the Aramaic Square Script.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jack Kilmon
> > > > > > San Antonio, TX
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > From: "Doug Belot" <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 4:31 PM
> > > > > > To: "ISAAC FRIED" <if AT math.bu.edu>; <dwashbur AT nyx.net>
> > > > > > Cc: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Well Wishing
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi to all , The Bible was first written in hebrew , which is similar
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > Arabic type script , could someone tell me when the English  words ,
> > > > > > > YHWH
> > > > > > > , first appeared in a Bible translation, did they appear before the
> > > > > > > Septuagint , did they appear the Massoretic experience , indeed does
> > > > > > > nayone know ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > doug belot
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > > > > From: "ISAAC FRIED" <if AT math.bu.edu>
> > > > > > > To: <dwashbur AT nyx.net>
> > > > > > > Cc: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 5:26 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Well Wishing
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It is not as simple as that.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Isaac Fried, Boston University
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sep 17, 2010, at 3:09 PM, dwashbur AT nyx.net wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 17 Sep 2010 at 14:32, Vetrano, Antonino wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Why wouldn't anyone just say thank you for the well wishing 
> > > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > this solemn season?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was wondering the same thing.  Someone tosses out a nice wish 
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > blessing, and others
> > > > > > > > > get into a fuss over pronunciation. And really, not even
> > > > > > > > > pronunciation, but transliteration.
> > > > > > > > > Only on b-hebrew.............
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dave Washburn
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
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