Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr>]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: jimstinehart AT aol.com
To: fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr ; kwrandolph AT gmail.com
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] H-XT-Y at II Samuel 11: 3


Dr. Arnaud Fournet:

You wrote:  “The only thing i can say is that Hurrian ebri "lord" or erbi
"dog" and Uriyah cannot be the same name [even though Uriyah may be a
distortion of Urhiya, which remains an optional speculation] and the XeTh
and the Xiti cannot be the same name [in addition there is a millenium gap
in between]. The rest is darkness.”

Those linguistic issues are the key here, and are the type of issues that
are fitting for the b-hebrew list..  Biblical scholars have been unable to
make any sense out of any of the following names:  BR(;  $M-)BR;  BR-%(;
B)RY;  (PR-W-N;  )RYW-K;  and )WRY-H.  But with your help, we can see that
all 7 of these names have the identical non-Semitic root, and that all these
people are the Biblical “Hittites”
***
You don't seem to have noticed that I seriously oppose several of these 
premices.
A.
***



-- that is, an historical non-Semitic
people in Canaan who are not the Hittites from eastern Anatolia, but whose
homeland is immediately south of the Hittites, and who for 300 years
contended with the Hittites for control of Syria, until their catastrophic
defeat by the Hittites near the end of the Amarna Age.

The key is that in this non-Semitic language, B and P and W are often
interchangeable, especially regarding this common word.  In addition, the
eastern version of this non-Semitic language had metathesis, where the order
of the two consonants in this basic common word is reversed.
***
I'm afraid you are deluding yourself.
These operations of substitution of letters/sounds and 
metathesis/permutation etc. are typical of the period of historical 
linguistics which culminated with Guichard 1606. All these operations amount 
to what has been called "etymological furor". There's no "language" here. 
It's a complete methodological artefact created by illegitimate operations.
A.
***

[...]

4.  RW

)RYW-K at Genesis 14: 1.  This has the W [instead of B or P], like “Uriah”.
But here’s the famous metathesis from the east, where instead of WR as
above, we now see RW in this attested non-Semitic name.  Per Richard Hess at
p. 37 of “Amarna Personal Names”:  “The language represented by this PN is
Hurrian.  A-ra-wa-na­ may contain the element ewri ‘lord’ if one allows for
a metathesis of the r and the w.”  A 2003 source confirms the 1941 insight
of E.A. Speiser as to this metathesis in the east:  “Ras Shamra examples of
Hurrian names [at Ugarit] indicate a tendency in Syria-Palestine for the
West Hurrian dialect. The clearest evidence is in the names compounded with
the noun iwri “lord, king” as the initial element. This is consistently
spelled iwri, indicating the West Hurrian dialect. In the East Hurrian
(Nuzi) dialect, the noun appeared with the metathesis of w and r as irwi.
The following statement of Speiser (1941: 68) is helpful:  ‘. . . the parade
example of the metathesis is ewri “lord,” which common-Hurrian form is
opposed only by Nuzi erwi. Here the choice of this or that phonologic
alternant has become characteristic of a dialectal division which separates
Eastern Hurrian from other groups which are predominantly western.’”  Thomas
F. McDaniel, “The Song of Deborah:  Poetry in Dialect -- A Philological
Study of Judges 5” (2003), at p. 48.
***
I don't think we understand these issues well enough at the present time to 
talk about "dialects" of Hurrian.
I'm not even sure that the equation Nuzi erwi = std ebri is correct.
A.
***


Conclusion.  These are the Biblical “Hittites”.  These are the XT people,
H-XT-Y, and they’re also the H-XR-Y and the H-XW-Y as well, with H-XT-Y and
H-XW-Y being appropriate Biblical nicknames for these people.  The Syrian
“brothers” of these Biblical “Hittites” out east have attested names
featuring XT/XW.  Xu-Ti-b-Te$$ub, which features X-T as the first two
consonants, and X-W as the first two letters [where the W here represents
the vowel U].  The classic generic theophoric name of all time for this
non-Semitic people is Xu-Ti-ya, which likewise features X-T as the first two
consonants, and X-W as the first two letters.
***
Hudi-TeSSub is a regular Hurrian name: hud- is a verb "to praise" (and maybe 
also "to take care of").
This verb clearly has nothing to do with Heth or Hiti.
A.
***


The Hebrew author re-cycled the simple non-Semitic word ebri in many
different variations, because his contemporary Hebrew audience knew only a
tiny handful of non-Semitic words.  They knew ebri, and knew it could be
epri or ewri or erwi.  The foregoing linguistic analysis (i) explains who
the Biblical “Hittites” were, and (ii) explains all 7 above names.  One
cannot understand what the Hebrew Bible is saying here absent a basic
knowledge of this non-Semitic language.

Jim Stinehart
Shanghai, China (temporarily)
***
I'm afraid I disagree.

Arnaud Fournet






-----Original Message-----
From: Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr>
To: kwrandolph AT gmail.com; jimstinehart AT aol.com
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sat, Jul 31, 2010 10:33 am
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] H-XT-Y at II Samuel 11: 3


----- Original Message ----- From: jimstinehart AT aol.com
To: fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr ; kwrandolph AT gmail.com
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] H-XT-Y at II Samuel 11: 3

1. You wrote: “Assuming that Hiti can have a relationship with some kind of
Hurro-Urartian population, How do you explain that a person of that kind
could ever be commander of an *Egyptian* garrison? [NB: as far as I'm
concerned the idea can be discarded at first glimpse.]”

We know from the Amarna Letters that Egypt often used non-Semitic maryannu
as its military agents.
***
This very much sounds your own interpretation.
Who else writes that?
A.
***

Not only was Arawa-na the commander of the Egyptian garrison at Kumidu, but
also Biryawaza was Pharaoh’s military man in the Transjordan, per Amarna
Letters EA 196 and EA 197.
***
I have two problems with that name Biryawaza in EA 196 and 197.
The first one is that the first syllable was originally read nam- instead of
bir-, so there's a doubt on the reading. The second one is that the last
syllable is -zi not -za.
So in fact, this **Biryawaza is in fact at least Bir-ia-wa-zi and maybe even
Nam-ia-wa-zi.
All this makes the Hurrianicity of that person seriously dubious (either as
a Mitanni Aryan or a Hurrian properly).

In addition this dubious name was succeeded by another dubious A-ri-wa-na,
of dubious ethnicity.
I agree that A-ri-wa-na includes A-ri- which can be a Hurrian formative of
Person names, but -wana is not.

The data is not clean.
A.
***


The civil war in Canaan in Year 13, which accounts for the bulk of the
Amarna Letters from the southern half of Canaan, pitted one coalition, which
included princeling rulers with non-Semitic names, against another
coalition, which was made up almost exclusively of princeling rulers with
non-Semitic names.

If people with non-Semitic names like that are the Biblical “Hittites”, then
in the 14th century BCE, everywhere one looked, the ruling class was
primarily such people. No wonder those fully historical non-Semitic people
made it into the Bible.


2. You wrote: “Moreover it seems that Uriyah the Hiti belongs to a period
*younger* than this time, doesn't he?”

Yes, but the phrase H-XT-Y goes back to the first Hebrews.
***
On account of what?
A.
***

Who are the H-XT-Y?
***
(1) Unknown, or (2) maybe some Hurro-Urartian people as we discussed before.
Hatti remains potentially comparable with Xiti as a is not infrequently
rendered by e or i.
A.
***

Is H-XT-Y a nickname for a people who are properly called H-XR-Y, and who
have a second nickname in this same text: H-XW-Y? Many of the Syrian
“brothers” of the non-Semitic princelings in 14th century BCE Canaan had
names whose first two consonants were XT, and whose first two letters in
those same names were XW (if W in that context is viewed as being the vowel
U). So all three names may be referring to the same non-Semitic people, who
were so prominent throughout Canaan in the Amarna Age: H-XT-Y and H-XR-Y and
H-XW-Y. In all 3 cases, there’s only one letter different in the Biblical
name/nickname. And in all 3 cases, the name or nickname fits these
particular non-Semitic people linguistically. Are they the Biblical
“Hittites”, being fully historical, and not having west Semitic names?
***
I don't understand the way you are using "historical" and "non historical".
What do these words mean?
A.
***

3. You wrote: “I cannot see the "similarity" between Aryokh and Arawa[xx].
Less than 25% match.”

The suffix in the first case is –ka, meaning “son” or “Junior”, etc. The
suffix in the second case is –na, meaning “the”. So the suffixes differ.
***
1. I can see no -a in Aryokh.
2. Aryo- and Arawa are obvious not the same root.
3. These two persons are apparently separated by half a millenium.
A.
***

The Akkadian-style spelling of )RYW-K is Arawa-ka [whereas a non-Semitic
spelling of that same name would be Eriwi-ka].
***
Do you have a reference for these two claims?
A.
***

The other name is Arawa-na (per the Akkadian-style spelling which seems to
be favored for this name). There’s only one letter difference. The root is
identical. It’s the same root, having the identical meaning, but with
different suffixes, that’s all.
***
Actually the name Aryokh and Arawa[na?] have two letters in common -a-
and -r- and maybe three if we kindly add the initial consonant.
A.
***

Don’t you see that the critical importance of the name Arawa-na in the
Amarna Letters, regarding the southern Beqa Valley, is that it means that
the consonant reversal (metathesis) from the east was known in Canaan? Erwi,
eriwi, arawa -- they’re all the same as “Uriah”, once the metathesis from
the east is recognized. It’s the same non-Semitic word, being one of the few
non-Semitic words that the early Hebrews could be expected to know. Indeed,
that particular non-Semitic word, in many different forms, seems to be the
linguistic hallmark of the Biblical “Hittites”, the XT people, H-XT-Y, a
fully historical people in Canaan who did not have west Semitic names.
Jim Stinehart
***
I believe in good data, properly discussed as far it is possible to do so,
descriptive neutral words with preferably no hidden premices and
step-by-step reasoning.
We are very far from that here: unclear names, quite demonstrably different
whatever they were and conclusions popping out of the hat, that wasn't there
the step before. To be more precise it seems to be procrustean hat that
transforms Uriyah, Arawa[xx] and erwi into the same thing.
I cannot even describe what your line of reasoning is and i would not be
able to explain to somebody else what you wanted to say.
The only thing i can say is that Hurrian ebri "lord" or erbi "dog" and
Uriyah cannot be the same name [even though Uriyah may be a distortion of
Urhiya, which remains an optional speculation] and the XeTh and the Xiti
cannot be the same name [in addition there is a millenium gap in between].
The rest is darkness.

Arnaud Fournet