Biblical Hebrew Forum

[davedonnelly1 <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>]

Hi Ted

In my last post to you I had said:

"Obviously the Masoretes placed the precise same vowels as are found in
Elohiym into YHVH, "


You answered:


"The statement below is simply incorrect. 

There are admittedly a few isolated cases where the yod of YHWH is
pointed with compound shva (seghol hateph). But in 99% of qere elohim
cases, the Massoretes give the yod a simple shva. 

This is precisely the same supposed lack of precision that exists with
qere adonai. Why is the one significant and the other not? To be
consistent wouldn't we have to say that the Yehowih and Yehowah both
represent real ancient pronunciations of YHWH since neither represents
the exact vowels of the supposed qere? Or conversely that both represent
the vowels of the qere placed on the tetragram?

Peace,
Ted Brownstein"
.........................................................................
.........................................................................
................
Ted, at this moment in time I do not believe that any serious discussions
can continue on this issue,
on this discussion board, unless we have references to the six variants
of YHWH in Codex L. in front of us.

We are talking apples and oranges because we do not have an image in
front of us that shows the six variants of YHWH found in the Leningrad
Codex of 1008-1010 A.D. versus the two variants of YHWH found in the 
Ben Chayyim Hebrew Text of 1525 A.D.

I think that we might be able to discuss this issue, on a different
Discussion Board that allow images with Hebrew font to be posted in the
text .

I will do a little research on this issue.

My first research occurs immediately below where I attempt to post two
different links on this b-hebrew discussion board, which show the six
variants of YHWH, which are found in Codex L.

http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/YHWHgroup/photos/album/2085311376/pic/33
2160586/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc   


http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/YHWHgroup/photos/album/2085311376/pic/14
20961826/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc


In a message dated 12/31/2009 9:14:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
davedonnelly1 AT juno.com writes:

Obviously the Masoretes placed the precise same vowels as are found in
Elohiym into YHVH, 

P.S. 

Ted, 

We might attempt to print out the information found at those two links
above,
to determine if we can discuss apples and apples., instead of apples and
oranges. 

Possibly clicking on those links is possible,
but if not, cutting and pasting those two links will work.

If this doesn't work I think that I can find a Discussion board that will
allow images with Hebrew font to be posted,
that we and others can discuss this issue on. The moderator of this
unnamed Discussion Board will be an expert on this issue.


Dave Donnelly
____________________________________________________________
Weight Loss Program
Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=2yUNDp3fYgGmRq3rXnW_cgAAJ1BVGyITH_OGb159rldJgo3SAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEUgAAAAA=
>From jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com  Thu Dec 31 16:41:28 2009
Return-Path: <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id 0238E4C012; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 16:41:27 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on malecky
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE
        autolearn=disabled version=3.2.3
Received: from mail-bw0-f224.google.com (mail-bw0-f224.google.com
        [209.85.218.224])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D1984C010
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 16:41:26 -0500 
(EST)
Received: by bwz24 with SMTP id 24so8350551bwz.30
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 13:41:25 -0800 
(PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.204.131.91 with SMTP id w27mr4263968bks.193.1262295685539; 
        Thu, 31 Dec 2009 13:41:25 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <bdf.669d18de.386d4423 AT aol.com>
References: <bdf.669d18de.386d4423 AT aol.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:41:24 +0200
Message-ID: <4f3a6170912311341o22579fb3i409a99473245e8f0 AT mail.gmail.com>
From: James Christian <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com>
To: TedBro AT aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Vowel Subsitution
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Biblical Hebrew Forum <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 21:41:28 -0000

I'm finding it difficult understanding what you are having difficulty with.
It seems to me that you are having difficulty understanding that qere/ketic
elohim and adonai are two separate issues to be considered separately. It
would seem to me that you consider the two to go hand in hand and either
they are both true or are both not and there are no further possibilities.
This kind of reminds me of discussions I have with 'scientists' who cannot
see that microevolution and macroevolution are two completely separate
issues.

I'll try once again to phrase it in a way that can be more easily
understood. Let us assume that at some point a tradition arises of
pronouncing YHWH as ADONAI. Let us further assume that in some places this
would not make sense because two ADONAIs one after the other sounds bad. And
so let us further assume that in these places the tradition arises of
pronouncing YHWH as ELOHIM. The question I would put to you is this:

If the default qere is ADONAI is there really any need to vowel point YHWH
with ADONAI vowel pointing?

If we further hypothesis that the vowels of Yehowah are original and
therefore so coincidentally similar to those of ADONAI then even less so!

Just for the record my position in this issue is entirely neutral. I'm just
pointing out the possibilities which seem to be supported by theophoric
components and a lack of any specific reference in ancient commentaries. The
issue is therefore far from resolved. The only thing we can say with any
amount of certainty is that the 'reconstruction' YAHWEH is absolute
nonsense.

James Christian

2009/12/31 <TedBro AT aol.com>

>  James:
>
> I'm continuing to have a difficult time understanding what you are trying
> to say. What do you mean by "Obviously there is no real debate of the Elohim
> readings"? What is the difference between qere adonai and qere elohim in the
> Hebrew text. Why would anyone be convinced that Yehowih is the
> tetragrammaton pointed with the vowels of Elohim and not be convinced that
> Yehowah is the tetragrammaton pointed with the vowels of adonai? Isn't the
> evidence identical?
>
> Paraphrasing... couldn't we ask:
>
> Did the massoretes who pointed the text put the vowels of elohim under YHWH
> while conforming to pointed rules dictated by the yodh of YHWH or are the
> similarities just coincidence?
>
> Peace,
> Ted Brownstein
> Lake Worth, FL
> =====================
>
>  In a message dated 12/29/2009 5:50:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com writes:
>
> Hi,
>
> obviously there is no real debate over the Elohim readings. The debate is
> over the adonai readings. We accept that in the places where we see YHWH
> with vowel pointing in some respects similar to that of adonai and in some
> respects conforming to expected usage under the consonants of YHWH the
> modern reading tradition is adonai and has been for quite some time. The
> question is:
>
> Did the massoretes who pointed the text put the vowels of adonai under YHWH
> while conforming to pointed rules dictated by the yodh of YHWH or are the
> similarities just coincidence?
>
>